Food plot versus Baiting....
06-23-2003, 04:21 PM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,059
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
BUbuckhunter; plant trees and shrubs. Oaks, Persimmons, Apples or anything else that grows in your climate and helps to stabilize the soil. It doesn' t have to cost very much if you gather the seed from the wild and grow your own.
Dan O.
Dan O.
06-25-2003, 03:25 AM
#42
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: ALBERTA CANADA
Posts: 844
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
It' s always refreshing to leave MI and hunt in the " baitless" PA every year.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
Ive hunted the UP before and I know exactly what you are talking about. I hunt almost identical terrain,, very MINIMAL baiting done. And you are correct, the best bucks have been seen or killed the last 2 years at midday. Unfortunately 1 adjoining property is just barraged with hunters openning day,,, but weve got the escape routes down!!
06-26-2003, 07:54 AM
#43
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
Might take you up on that offer!
Some confuse baiting with a right, or just another method....I don' t.
*The average guy can' t go out and have a decent chance around here without bait
*The only way the majority of a generation of hunters around here know how to hunt, is with bait.
*The average guy throws out some bait and looks at it through a hole in the blind on opening day-that' s it.
*Baiting conditions deer to approach at night for food, fill up fat and go lay for the day. Highly nocturnal.
*Commen sense tells us that baiting contributes greatly to an overharvest of yearling bucks. Even our district wildlife biologist said that no-baiting would be more effective, in our area, than antler restrictions, for protection of yearling bucks. He simply said people don' t know how to hunt anymore. At the same time, these 4 counties, prior to 1980, had more CBM buck entries than all of the other counties in MI, combined. Since 1980(more than a coincedance about the time mass-baiting started taking place), these counties are barely on the map. I feel strongly, as do local biologist, that is directly a result of the poor age structure caused by baiting.
Baiting is not a right, but a privelage, and it' s becoming a bad habit to the future of all of our love of hunting---around HERE! Most areas of the country people have the luxury of this not even being an issue, it doesn' t matter if it' s allowed or not. But around here, do to the fact we have no agricultural, fruit, or mast crop, it' s a huge issue. Until you' ve lived here, and hunted here, you have no idea.
By the way, when I see a deer on the wall, I do ask how the hunter got it, and he says bait.....I do admire the deer, but not necessarily the hunter. No different than many of the biggest bucks ever shot. Just luck, no skill. I still admire the deer, but I don' t want to see any articles about deer hunting by the guy who shot it.
Also, I' ve never shot a deer over food plots, and 2 over bait...out of around 50 deer harvested.
Most areas of the country, baiting is a non-factor, even if allowed. That' s not the same around here. Until you' ve experienced it, don' t be so quick to judge.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
Some confuse baiting with a right, or just another method....I don' t.
*The average guy can' t go out and have a decent chance around here without bait
*The only way the majority of a generation of hunters around here know how to hunt, is with bait.
*The average guy throws out some bait and looks at it through a hole in the blind on opening day-that' s it.
*Baiting conditions deer to approach at night for food, fill up fat and go lay for the day. Highly nocturnal.
*Commen sense tells us that baiting contributes greatly to an overharvest of yearling bucks. Even our district wildlife biologist said that no-baiting would be more effective, in our area, than antler restrictions, for protection of yearling bucks. He simply said people don' t know how to hunt anymore. At the same time, these 4 counties, prior to 1980, had more CBM buck entries than all of the other counties in MI, combined. Since 1980(more than a coincedance about the time mass-baiting started taking place), these counties are barely on the map. I feel strongly, as do local biologist, that is directly a result of the poor age structure caused by baiting.
Baiting is not a right, but a privelage, and it' s becoming a bad habit to the future of all of our love of hunting---around HERE! Most areas of the country people have the luxury of this not even being an issue, it doesn' t matter if it' s allowed or not. But around here, do to the fact we have no agricultural, fruit, or mast crop, it' s a huge issue. Until you' ve lived here, and hunted here, you have no idea.
By the way, when I see a deer on the wall, I do ask how the hunter got it, and he says bait.....I do admire the deer, but not necessarily the hunter. No different than many of the biggest bucks ever shot. Just luck, no skill. I still admire the deer, but I don' t want to see any articles about deer hunting by the guy who shot it.
Also, I' ve never shot a deer over food plots, and 2 over bait...out of around 50 deer harvested.
Most areas of the country, baiting is a non-factor, even if allowed. That' s not the same around here. Until you' ve experienced it, don' t be so quick to judge.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
06-26-2003, 09:47 AM
#44
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
Forgot something!
There is a huge difference for you guys with no experience with a location like this.
In MOST areas of the country, a hunter goes through many cycles as they mature and grow as a hunter. During those phases, many, if legal, try baiting as a way to maybe give a short cut to greater success, more viewing opportunities, etc..Some stick to it-fine, some don' t-fine. Some realize they can have better success on older aged-bucks or whatever, and stop, some enjoy stillhunting, sitting in funnels, rattling, etc.
I my area of the county, it' s completely different. Virtually all hunters around here grow up baiting. It' s simply all they have been exposed to. They eventually mature into a stage at which they make a choice: Keep baiting and have a little chance at a yearling and have it be easy with little effort, or to hunt without. They try hunting without, but do not know how to hunt without, and quickly realize the time and dedication around here it takes to get a deer without bait, due to all of the bait piles in the woods, nocturnal movements, wilderness setting, whatever. They soon enter the next stage, of which I have many friends who are at this point. They either reluctantly bait, or give up hunting. I don' t want them to give up hunting, but that' s what is happening.
For most areas of the country you typically don' t have to come down to this choice, but around here, you do. Sure, they might buy a license, go to camp, have some drinks and play cards, but that' s about it. Around here, DIFFERENT from many areas of the country, as an average hunter, you simply HAVE to bait to have a reasonable shot at success.
That is where the problem has come in around here, and why there is a big difference in most areas of the country, and even most parts of MI. We' ve created a baiting atmosphere that has turned baiting into not just a method of hunting, as it is in most areas of the country where legal, but a RELUCTANT NECESSITY. HUGE difference.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
There is a huge difference for you guys with no experience with a location like this.
In MOST areas of the country, a hunter goes through many cycles as they mature and grow as a hunter. During those phases, many, if legal, try baiting as a way to maybe give a short cut to greater success, more viewing opportunities, etc..Some stick to it-fine, some don' t-fine. Some realize they can have better success on older aged-bucks or whatever, and stop, some enjoy stillhunting, sitting in funnels, rattling, etc.
I my area of the county, it' s completely different. Virtually all hunters around here grow up baiting. It' s simply all they have been exposed to. They eventually mature into a stage at which they make a choice: Keep baiting and have a little chance at a yearling and have it be easy with little effort, or to hunt without. They try hunting without, but do not know how to hunt without, and quickly realize the time and dedication around here it takes to get a deer without bait, due to all of the bait piles in the woods, nocturnal movements, wilderness setting, whatever. They soon enter the next stage, of which I have many friends who are at this point. They either reluctantly bait, or give up hunting. I don' t want them to give up hunting, but that' s what is happening.
For most areas of the country you typically don' t have to come down to this choice, but around here, you do. Sure, they might buy a license, go to camp, have some drinks and play cards, but that' s about it. Around here, DIFFERENT from many areas of the country, as an average hunter, you simply HAVE to bait to have a reasonable shot at success.
That is where the problem has come in around here, and why there is a big difference in most areas of the country, and even most parts of MI. We' ve created a baiting atmosphere that has turned baiting into not just a method of hunting, as it is in most areas of the country where legal, but a RELUCTANT NECESSITY. HUGE difference.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
06-26-2003, 10:12 AM
#45
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 380
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
There ya go!
Jeff, you finally hit the right point. Your experience is vastly different from some other people' s. In my experience hunting (a couple thousand miles away from your area), baiting isn' t at all like you have been describing. In Florida, the ' baiting' law is that you have to have your feeder established nine months before you hunt over it. That' s nine months of carrying 50 lb bags of corn into the woods... in the Florida summer. Ever experienced July in the Florida swamps? ' Baiting' (I' m going to use the term feeding from now on) isn' t all fun and games down here.
Now, I used a corn feeder for a few years, and don' t now, but I wouldn' t say my hunting skills have improved or diminished at all because of either way. I didn' t hunt over the feeder, and even if I had, it wouldn' t have made a lick of difference. The deer simply don' t come to the thing like a piece of candy... the only thing a feeder is good for down here is to make the deer take notice and maybe come by a little more often. Hunting with or without it - not really any difference.
I just wanted to take a moment and address a statement someone made earlier about bait hunters not having the patience or pickiness of food plot growers... some of them are the same people. In your personal experience, perhaps, feeders are more kill-oriented people, but I can guarantee you there are people who hunt over feeders who are more patient hunters than you' ll ever be. Not meant as a slight, just a simple statement of fact - food plot growers do not necessarily equal good hunters, the same way feeders do not equal bad hunters.
Oh, and I agree with the point that we need as many legal hunters as possible in the woods - more political force!
Jeff, you finally hit the right point. Your experience is vastly different from some other people' s. In my experience hunting (a couple thousand miles away from your area), baiting isn' t at all like you have been describing. In Florida, the ' baiting' law is that you have to have your feeder established nine months before you hunt over it. That' s nine months of carrying 50 lb bags of corn into the woods... in the Florida summer. Ever experienced July in the Florida swamps? ' Baiting' (I' m going to use the term feeding from now on) isn' t all fun and games down here.
Now, I used a corn feeder for a few years, and don' t now, but I wouldn' t say my hunting skills have improved or diminished at all because of either way. I didn' t hunt over the feeder, and even if I had, it wouldn' t have made a lick of difference. The deer simply don' t come to the thing like a piece of candy... the only thing a feeder is good for down here is to make the deer take notice and maybe come by a little more often. Hunting with or without it - not really any difference.
I just wanted to take a moment and address a statement someone made earlier about bait hunters not having the patience or pickiness of food plot growers... some of them are the same people. In your personal experience, perhaps, feeders are more kill-oriented people, but I can guarantee you there are people who hunt over feeders who are more patient hunters than you' ll ever be. Not meant as a slight, just a simple statement of fact - food plot growers do not necessarily equal good hunters, the same way feeders do not equal bad hunters.
Oh, and I agree with the point that we need as many legal hunters as possible in the woods - more political force!
06-26-2003, 06:19 PM
#46
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,059
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
FL/GA Hunter; I don' t agree with you entirely about food plots not making you a better hunter. Growing food plots doesn' t guarantee that you are a better hunter but it teaches you large amounts about deer. You learn their habits, their routes, their sanctuaries. A food plot isn' t just a field of hay in a spare field. There are a lot of people on this forum that plant according to what they know about deer and how they want to change their habits. Then they learn from their experiences.
Food plots don' t guarantee a kill. But; they improve deer habitat and give you a greater sense of accomplishment when you grow them and then hunt them properly. I guess it' s like making homemade wine or beer. Your product will probably not be as good as the store bought product bbut you gain a greater appreciation of wine and beer from making it yourself.
The most productive deer hunt I' ve ever been on was the worst deer hunt I' ve ever been on. Walking through the bush making noise is one thing, but watching deer running in the open at noon hour out nothing more than fear didn' t teach me the skill of hunting. It produced a lot of meat but I' d rather sit in a tree with a bow.
NorthJeff appears to be in a crappy situation. If he has to bait then bait, but there are other improvements that can be made in conjunction with baiting. I tend to get nocturnal deer also but it' s due to the deer having easy access to the food plots from a thick swamp and pressure from illegal hunters.
Dan O.
Food plots don' t guarantee a kill. But; they improve deer habitat and give you a greater sense of accomplishment when you grow them and then hunt them properly. I guess it' s like making homemade wine or beer. Your product will probably not be as good as the store bought product bbut you gain a greater appreciation of wine and beer from making it yourself.
The most productive deer hunt I' ve ever been on was the worst deer hunt I' ve ever been on. Walking through the bush making noise is one thing, but watching deer running in the open at noon hour out nothing more than fear didn' t teach me the skill of hunting. It produced a lot of meat but I' d rather sit in a tree with a bow.
NorthJeff appears to be in a crappy situation. If he has to bait then bait, but there are other improvements that can be made in conjunction with baiting. I tend to get nocturnal deer also but it' s due to the deer having easy access to the food plots from a thick swamp and pressure from illegal hunters.
Dan O.
06-26-2003, 07:18 PM
#47
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 380
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
I don' t think you were attacking me and I don' t feel I have to defend myself, just wanted to clarify:
Growing a food plot can definitely make you a better hunter, if you do the research necessary to make a truly productive one. You can also simply fertilize an area and throw out some seed, not learning a darned thing. In the long run, you become a better hunter because that' s who you are, and you' re going to learn through some method - other people teaching you, observation, necessity... whatever. I' m going to start growing food plots this year for the first time, and I know I' m going to learn because of it - that might not be the case with every hunter, though.
I just wanted to reinforce that hunters that used bait aren' t necessarily bad hunters - there are good situations and bad, and sometimes you have to make do with what you have, like you said. You should never make blanket generalizations without knowing the situation.
In the same way, (and I know this is opening a can of worms), I couldn' t hunt with dogs. I' ve heard stories about people who hunted well with dogs, but every dog hunt I' ve been witness to has been this: a couple of guys let their dogs out in a block of woods, and then people drive their pickups to spots the deer might cross a road. In the same way NorthJeff hates bait hunting, I hate dog hunting; in his area, bait hunting is death to sportsmanship, and I believe dog hunting is that in my area. I won' t deny, though, that somewhere, someone is hunting with dogs the ' right' way according to me.
Anyway, just wanted to play devil' s advocate... hope everyone' s offseason is going great!
Growing a food plot can definitely make you a better hunter, if you do the research necessary to make a truly productive one. You can also simply fertilize an area and throw out some seed, not learning a darned thing. In the long run, you become a better hunter because that' s who you are, and you' re going to learn through some method - other people teaching you, observation, necessity... whatever. I' m going to start growing food plots this year for the first time, and I know I' m going to learn because of it - that might not be the case with every hunter, though.
I just wanted to reinforce that hunters that used bait aren' t necessarily bad hunters - there are good situations and bad, and sometimes you have to make do with what you have, like you said. You should never make blanket generalizations without knowing the situation.
In the same way, (and I know this is opening a can of worms), I couldn' t hunt with dogs. I' ve heard stories about people who hunted well with dogs, but every dog hunt I' ve been witness to has been this: a couple of guys let their dogs out in a block of woods, and then people drive their pickups to spots the deer might cross a road. In the same way NorthJeff hates bait hunting, I hate dog hunting; in his area, bait hunting is death to sportsmanship, and I believe dog hunting is that in my area. I won' t deny, though, that somewhere, someone is hunting with dogs the ' right' way according to me.
Anyway, just wanted to play devil' s advocate... hope everyone' s offseason is going great!
06-27-2003, 05:28 AM
#48
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
Neil,
You mention off-season. That' s the difference with guys who bait around here, and guys who don' t. You are on here cause you have a passion, the rest of are as well. Heck, it' s June and were discussing fall hunting practices and hunting philosophy.
That' s the another big difference. You don' t see they guys that live around me on these boards right now because their passion has been sucked out of them by a 50#sack of carrots or beats. What little" passion" they have, will be used to clean the cobweds out of their shack 1 week before 11/15, and throw out some illegal bait (believe it or not, after 20 years of truckloads, people don' t follow the 5 gallon law!), and sit for few days-mostly evenings because they scare the deer off the pile in the morning.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
You mention off-season. That' s the difference with guys who bait around here, and guys who don' t. You are on here cause you have a passion, the rest of are as well. Heck, it' s June and were discussing fall hunting practices and hunting philosophy.
That' s the another big difference. You don' t see they guys that live around me on these boards right now because their passion has been sucked out of them by a 50#sack of carrots or beats. What little" passion" they have, will be used to clean the cobweds out of their shack 1 week before 11/15, and throw out some illegal bait (believe it or not, after 20 years of truckloads, people don' t follow the 5 gallon law!), and sit for few days-mostly evenings because they scare the deer off the pile in the morning.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
06-27-2003, 07:11 AM
#49
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saginaw & Houghton Lake, Michigan USA
Posts: 249
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
NorthJeff the bait site limit is 2 gallons not 5. I agree with you about the truck loads. If someone is going to bait they will put out a pile to last the entire firearm season. Similarly for archery hunters. They will put out enough on Sunday before they go home, that there will be bait left for them to hunter over on the next Friday evening. I have never known a baiter who followed the 2 gallon limit.
06-27-2003, 02:30 PM
#50
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,059
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
FL/GAhunter; You' re absolutely right about me not attacking you. I throw out my opinion, you throw out your' s. Everyone has a differeny prospective and we all learn from each other. No one' s right. When I give suggestions on tree planting etc., my opinion could be dead wrong for someone in Texas and not as good as other people offer.
I believe that everyone can improve deer/wildlife habitat as a part of hunting. If you belong to an angling club you' re expected to help improve habitat. The general public looks on this positively and the angler gets better fishing. Everyone wins, even the guy who sells the fish feed for stocked fry.
Trees are long term and most people don' t want to plant them because they won' t get the benefit. Field crops are more instantly gratifying but still go a long way to help keep deer hunting going.
Dan O.
I believe that everyone can improve deer/wildlife habitat as a part of hunting. If you belong to an angling club you' re expected to help improve habitat. The general public looks on this positively and the angler gets better fishing. Everyone wins, even the guy who sells the fish feed for stocked fry.
Trees are long term and most people don' t want to plant them because they won' t get the benefit. Field crops are more instantly gratifying but still go a long way to help keep deer hunting going.
Dan O.