Food plot versus Baiting....
05-20-2003, 06:46 PM
#31
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ferry Township, Michigan United States
Posts: 165
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
Odoc Virgin, Jeff is passionate in his belief that baiting has ruined the whole idea of the hunt. You don' t hunt the deer. You go out prior to the opener and dump a load of bait. The deer go to that spot. You go to the spot on opening day and shoot the deer. This is called shooting. Not hunting. Jeff knows what he' s talking about. It' s fact. I don' t know him personally but I do respect his opinion as it agrees with mine. [&:]
05-20-2003, 06:53 PM
#32
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,059
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
There was a study done in Michigan which compared the success rate of harvesting deer with and without bait. Baiting increased the harvest by 4%. Other hunting techniques such as tree stands, camo etc. had a greater effect on harvest success. Maybe the deer aren' t as dumb as we think OR a poor hunter with bait is still a poor hunter.
Dan O.
Dan O.
05-21-2003, 08:02 AM
#34
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saginaw & Houghton Lake, Michigan USA
Posts: 249
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
NorthJeff:
" it has run it' s course, and we are looking forward to a day sometime soon that it will be eliminated."
NorthJeff, I hope you are right. But do you really think anyone on the NRC has the guts to make that move?
" it has run it' s course, and we are looking forward to a day sometime soon that it will be eliminated."
NorthJeff, I hope you are right. But do you really think anyone on the NRC has the guts to make that move?
05-21-2003, 12:33 PM
#35
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
The spread of disease is only a very minor concern to me. If it comes, it comes, nothing we can do. We' ll deal with it. But, studies have shown that at least TB cannot be spread by foraging. Disease is only a minor reason out of top 20 for the reasons to not have bait around here. A lot of the reasons go away on their own in other areas as it is not as effective.
I' ve seen the numbers of hunters success with or without bait. First off, we can bait in the entire state, but there is probably less than 10% of the state that bait can be somewhate effectively used. I live in a portion of the 10%. I don' t know how they can say that baiters are 4% more successful hunting when out of the several hundred hunters I' ve met in the area, I know of less than 10 that hunt without bait.
I invite you to come up here and hunt without bait this season to see how deer can be turned nocturnal. I won' t give you any help but a place to stay, and I' d be very surprised if you saw more than 5 deer.....in the entire 2 week gun season, unless you hunted near someone elses bait pile. In the last 5 years I' ve passed up around 15 bucks, 1 of which was a 2.5 year old 8-point, all on National Forest, and at least a 45 min. walk in, sometimes through beaver trails and water holes. I' ve fallen up to my neck in beaver muck twice during gun season and am very stubborn and persistant about my hunting, it' s the only way I see all the bucks I do.
Unless you are familiar with the area, using bait is the only way you will see a deer, unless extremely, extremely, lucky. I have the time, and the patience, but most don' t. We eliminate baiting, and the average guy can once again enjoy the total hunting experience, including even maybe harvesting a buck. That' s what I want, I want the average guy to be able to enjoy his hunt, harvest a buck, and for our hunting heritage to be revived.
Also, as far as the bait, most guys only hunt for a few days, but there are enough piles in the woods, and enough bait put out, that the bait may linger for 4 to 6 weeks. You can have a young button buck die while your at home a month later watching football playoffs not even thinking about deer for another 10 months. Deer get conditioned to visiting bait piles around the area every night. They sit tight during the day and fatten up on candy during the night, traveling many miles sometimes visiting bait piles. They' ve been conditioned to wait until dark, listen for you to drive away in your pickup or ATV you parked 100 yards from your stand, and go eat. That' s how they are conditioned to be nocturnal.
Like I said above, baiting in other areas wouldn' t even be an issue, but around here it is.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
I' ve seen the numbers of hunters success with or without bait. First off, we can bait in the entire state, but there is probably less than 10% of the state that bait can be somewhate effectively used. I live in a portion of the 10%. I don' t know how they can say that baiters are 4% more successful hunting when out of the several hundred hunters I' ve met in the area, I know of less than 10 that hunt without bait.
I invite you to come up here and hunt without bait this season to see how deer can be turned nocturnal. I won' t give you any help but a place to stay, and I' d be very surprised if you saw more than 5 deer.....in the entire 2 week gun season, unless you hunted near someone elses bait pile. In the last 5 years I' ve passed up around 15 bucks, 1 of which was a 2.5 year old 8-point, all on National Forest, and at least a 45 min. walk in, sometimes through beaver trails and water holes. I' ve fallen up to my neck in beaver muck twice during gun season and am very stubborn and persistant about my hunting, it' s the only way I see all the bucks I do.
Unless you are familiar with the area, using bait is the only way you will see a deer, unless extremely, extremely, lucky. I have the time, and the patience, but most don' t. We eliminate baiting, and the average guy can once again enjoy the total hunting experience, including even maybe harvesting a buck. That' s what I want, I want the average guy to be able to enjoy his hunt, harvest a buck, and for our hunting heritage to be revived.
Also, as far as the bait, most guys only hunt for a few days, but there are enough piles in the woods, and enough bait put out, that the bait may linger for 4 to 6 weeks. You can have a young button buck die while your at home a month later watching football playoffs not even thinking about deer for another 10 months. Deer get conditioned to visiting bait piles around the area every night. They sit tight during the day and fatten up on candy during the night, traveling many miles sometimes visiting bait piles. They' ve been conditioned to wait until dark, listen for you to drive away in your pickup or ATV you parked 100 yards from your stand, and go eat. That' s how they are conditioned to be nocturnal.
Like I said above, baiting in other areas wouldn' t even be an issue, but around here it is.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
05-21-2003, 02:41 PM
#36
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,059
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
I checked out the results of the Michigan DNR survey, my memory is a little off:
1984:
Baiting: 2.4 deer per 100 days of hunting
No baiting: 2.2 deer per 100 days of hunting
1991:
Baiting: 3.8 deer per 100 days of hunting
No baiting: 3.1 deer per 100 days of hunting
The improvement from 1991 to 1991 was attributed to higher deer populations and hunting techniques. There was a poor mast harvest which increased the bait/no bait spread.
Northjeff; I would worry more about disease spread than increased deer harvest from baiting if CWD gets into your area. I think most people are in agreement that baiting isn' t a preferred technique. If you' ve ever driven deer during a shotgun season with the woods swarming with hunters you' ll know how other methods of hunting are even more disturbing to the deer.
If you plant a good food plot, including seasonal delites like apples you should be able to minimize the effect of baiting on local properties.
Dan O.
1984:
Baiting: 2.4 deer per 100 days of hunting
No baiting: 2.2 deer per 100 days of hunting
1991:
Baiting: 3.8 deer per 100 days of hunting
No baiting: 3.1 deer per 100 days of hunting
The improvement from 1991 to 1991 was attributed to higher deer populations and hunting techniques. There was a poor mast harvest which increased the bait/no bait spread.
Northjeff; I would worry more about disease spread than increased deer harvest from baiting if CWD gets into your area. I think most people are in agreement that baiting isn' t a preferred technique. If you' ve ever driven deer during a shotgun season with the woods swarming with hunters you' ll know how other methods of hunting are even more disturbing to the deer.
If you plant a good food plot, including seasonal delites like apples you should be able to minimize the effect of baiting on local properties.
Dan O.
05-21-2003, 03:07 PM
#37
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
Dan O.,
Imagine if we get CWD in our area. All of our deer yard up at over 200 deer per square mile. Most bait, and many put food out for the deer to " help" them during the winter, further congregating deer. If it could spread anywhere, it will spread here.
All of our yearling bucks are suseptable to baiting practices. I feel you could place out bait and sit for 3 weeks, and see virtually every yearling buck in the area-both of them some years.
We have no apple trees, mast crop, or farmland around, so bait piles are literally like candy.
I have as many food plots on the property as I can, and like I said, I enjoy my hunting, but that doesn' t mean I can' t dream of one day hunting and managing my property without it!
Literally, if you don' t spend a couple of weeks scouting in the area first, you will not see a deer for an entire gun season. It happens to guys every year. I usually see 2 to 3 bucks, and a few does, for an entire 2 week season, and if you aren' t familiar with the area, and traditional hunting methods, you will not see anything.
On the other hand, I' ve shot 8 bucks in 10 years in PA, 6 by 11:00 in the morning on opening day, 1 in the afternoon, and 1 the next day' s afternoon. Last year I shot the 6th and largest one I saw, at 10:00. You are more likely to see a buck from 9:00 to 3:00, then any other time, and there is no baiting. Add in the new rule changes, and you have a truly quality hunt. All on national forest. By the way, we' ve shot close to 170 bucks in 30 years, with over 50% success and 7 bucks a year, and the biggest bucks, in the past 10 years, with less deer.
It' s always refreshing to leave MI and hunt in the " baitless" PA every year. I guess it' s hard to explain how baiting effects our area, you really can' t even imagine!
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
Imagine if we get CWD in our area. All of our deer yard up at over 200 deer per square mile. Most bait, and many put food out for the deer to " help" them during the winter, further congregating deer. If it could spread anywhere, it will spread here.
All of our yearling bucks are suseptable to baiting practices. I feel you could place out bait and sit for 3 weeks, and see virtually every yearling buck in the area-both of them some years.
We have no apple trees, mast crop, or farmland around, so bait piles are literally like candy.
I have as many food plots on the property as I can, and like I said, I enjoy my hunting, but that doesn' t mean I can' t dream of one day hunting and managing my property without it!
Literally, if you don' t spend a couple of weeks scouting in the area first, you will not see a deer for an entire gun season. It happens to guys every year. I usually see 2 to 3 bucks, and a few does, for an entire 2 week season, and if you aren' t familiar with the area, and traditional hunting methods, you will not see anything.
On the other hand, I' ve shot 8 bucks in 10 years in PA, 6 by 11:00 in the morning on opening day, 1 in the afternoon, and 1 the next day' s afternoon. Last year I shot the 6th and largest one I saw, at 10:00. You are more likely to see a buck from 9:00 to 3:00, then any other time, and there is no baiting. Add in the new rule changes, and you have a truly quality hunt. All on national forest. By the way, we' ve shot close to 170 bucks in 30 years, with over 50% success and 7 bucks a year, and the biggest bucks, in the past 10 years, with less deer.
It' s always refreshing to leave MI and hunt in the " baitless" PA every year. I guess it' s hard to explain how baiting effects our area, you really can' t even imagine!
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
06-20-2003, 08:33 PM
#38
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 22
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
Sounds like a bit of a pissing contest to me. Some of you out there feel the need to feed your egos by believing that you are more of a man because you shot your buck over a food plot vs a feeder. I don' t recall ever hearing someone admiring a beautiful trophy on someone wall and asking " did you harvest it under bait?" Get a grip fellas. Hunters are facing enourmous and challenges and dwindling numbers across the country from anti-hunters, kids video games, MTV, and apathy. We shoud be encouraging ways to get more " weekend warriors" out there because we need as many hunters out there as possible. If you need to harvest your deer " naturally" with out bait to consider yourself a " real hunter" then good for you. But you are an elitist snob if you think baiting makes you less of a hunter.
One thing nobody on this thread has mentioned is how baiting makes you a more discriminating hunter. By hunting feeders, I am able to see most of the deer in my area. I am able to film these critters over the years and watch the animals grow. Because of corn I can watch deer and CHOOSE the most mature animal to harvest. It' s called management, and identifying all the deer herd on my deer lease would be impossible without these feeding stations.
As for buckmine' s question about Ted Nugent, he hunts and endorses bait. Uncle Ted knows that experience is what counts. Who cares how you hunt, its the fact that you do hunt which is important
One thing nobody on this thread has mentioned is how baiting makes you a more discriminating hunter. By hunting feeders, I am able to see most of the deer in my area. I am able to film these critters over the years and watch the animals grow. Because of corn I can watch deer and CHOOSE the most mature animal to harvest. It' s called management, and identifying all the deer herd on my deer lease would be impossible without these feeding stations.
As for buckmine' s question about Ted Nugent, he hunts and endorses bait. Uncle Ted knows that experience is what counts. Who cares how you hunt, its the fact that you do hunt which is important
06-21-2003, 09:42 AM
#39
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 2,059
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
BUbuckhunter; Why are hunters getting a bad rap with the general public? Because those that poach, spotlight, and tresspass get the publicity. If deer hunters want to secure their future they' ll need to become stewards of the land to benefit wildlife. It goes a lot further to make people living near your area respect your right to hunt if they see you conserving the environment, improving habitat, and increasing (instead of decimating) the local wildlife. If you hunt responsibly on top of that, you won' t give people a reason to want hunting banned.
Hunting over foodplots doesn' t make you anymore of a man. But it should give the satisfaction that you' re putting back more than you' re taking out. It should also make you feel better about not spreading disease. If you want to bait then bait. But; if you can' t produce enough food on the property to hold the number of deer that you' re trying to harvest then it should tell you that somethings wrong.
Dan O.
Hunting over foodplots doesn' t make you anymore of a man. But it should give the satisfaction that you' re putting back more than you' re taking out. It should also make you feel better about not spreading disease. If you want to bait then bait. But; if you can' t produce enough food on the property to hold the number of deer that you' re trying to harvest then it should tell you that somethings wrong.
Dan O.
06-22-2003, 07:14 PM
#40
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 22
RE: Food plot versus Baiting....
Dan O,
Good points. In Texas deer hunting if the life blood of dozens of comunities both directly and indirectly. When fall rolls around, these comunites hang banners across the town squars saying " Welcome Hunters."
Cattle prices have plumeted over the last 20 years and in my area ranchers could not make it without deer hunters. My ranch owner gets $20,000 from 15 hunters every year. That is 1/3 of what he gets from the cows. We also help him out by removing problem forage such as mesquite and cedar(benefits cows and deer). The gas stations and convienient marts couldn' t make it with out the influx of cash hunters spend in their towns during deer season, and much of what we buy is corn. Texans hunters spend over 3 million dollars on corn alone. How many farmers are kept in business because of deer hunting?
These comunities need hunters to keep them alive. I am not concerned about having them pull out the welcome sign. However, I am concerned about the lack of interest young folks have in hunting these days. Few people are conected to the land like they used to be. With all the distractions potential hunters face (TV, video games, apathy, lack of outdoor knowledge, etc.) I think anything to make the experience more enjoyable, the better. Bait allows anyone to come out and see wildlife without having to spend tons of time, energy, and money planting food plots.
As for giving back to the land, feeders and other supplements do this. I end up feeding coons, possums, rabbits, turkey, quail, dove, song birds, hogs, etc. The varmits in my area are fat and sure have pretty coats! I wish I could strickly target deer, it would save me a whole bunch of money. Furthermore, I do not change the habitate in my area. Where I live a plowed field would lead to extream erosion. A monoculture food plot also cuts down on the plant diversity of the area, which eventually takes you away from being a steward of the land. Corn doesn' t give me more deer on the land, it just allows me to get a very good look at what deer I have in an area, makes me a more discriminating hunter because I see dozens of bucks, and it keeps the hunters in my area interested in returning to the lease year in and year out (helping ranchers, farmers, and ma & pa stores).
Good points. In Texas deer hunting if the life blood of dozens of comunities both directly and indirectly. When fall rolls around, these comunites hang banners across the town squars saying " Welcome Hunters."
Cattle prices have plumeted over the last 20 years and in my area ranchers could not make it without deer hunters. My ranch owner gets $20,000 from 15 hunters every year. That is 1/3 of what he gets from the cows. We also help him out by removing problem forage such as mesquite and cedar(benefits cows and deer). The gas stations and convienient marts couldn' t make it with out the influx of cash hunters spend in their towns during deer season, and much of what we buy is corn. Texans hunters spend over 3 million dollars on corn alone. How many farmers are kept in business because of deer hunting?
These comunities need hunters to keep them alive. I am not concerned about having them pull out the welcome sign. However, I am concerned about the lack of interest young folks have in hunting these days. Few people are conected to the land like they used to be. With all the distractions potential hunters face (TV, video games, apathy, lack of outdoor knowledge, etc.) I think anything to make the experience more enjoyable, the better. Bait allows anyone to come out and see wildlife without having to spend tons of time, energy, and money planting food plots.
As for giving back to the land, feeders and other supplements do this. I end up feeding coons, possums, rabbits, turkey, quail, dove, song birds, hogs, etc. The varmits in my area are fat and sure have pretty coats! I wish I could strickly target deer, it would save me a whole bunch of money. Furthermore, I do not change the habitate in my area. Where I live a plowed field would lead to extream erosion. A monoculture food plot also cuts down on the plant diversity of the area, which eventually takes you away from being a steward of the land. Corn doesn' t give me more deer on the land, it just allows me to get a very good look at what deer I have in an area, makes me a more discriminating hunter because I see dozens of bucks, and it keeps the hunters in my area interested in returning to the lease year in and year out (helping ranchers, farmers, and ma & pa stores).