burniegoeasily

I have friends who make their living on ranching cattle, I suppose that is wrong as well. Same principle, just a different name.


Fair Chase
Blaaaaaa haaaa ha ha ha, I have yet to see a human run down a deer and kill it with their bare hands. That is fair chase. Im sorry but shooting a deer form any distance is not fair chase. I have yet to see a deer with a bow or gun to shot back.

kshunter

quote:In some instances i could understand it. But i believe thats wrong

It's funny, maybe if we stopped using the term "hunting" in regards to high-fenced deer, but instead use words like harvesting, or farming, people would respect that more. If it's the same principle(like was said) as if you were hunting/butchering cattle, then loosely throwing around the definition of "hunting" must be what a lot of people don't like.

burniegoeasily

kshunter
You made my point all over agian. I posted that it is simply jargon that gets peoples undies in a bunch. Call it what you will, i still feel it shouldnt be outlawed. I will never hunt behind a fence, but if others want to, more power to them. I get upset when people start berating it with a gripe of fair chase. Well nothing we do is fair chase. Shooting a deer at 300 yards gives that deer a great chance, doesnt it? I shot a doe this year at 350 yards with my 300 wby, was that fair chase? No, she never knew what hit her. I shot a doe with my compound at 35 yards, was that fair chase? No, agian, she didnt know what hit her. I shot my buck at about 80 yards with a rifle, on a clif bluff. No fair chase there. My point, If we as hunters start scrutinizing others way of hunting/harvesting game, we are setting ourself up to lose ours. I hunt with every methoid, each gives me an inhearant advantage. Not one deer have I ever taken during a "fair chase". Neither has anyone else on this planet. We are humans, we have to use tools to harvest a deer. As long as the practice promotes a quick death, whats the problem. All I can figure is bragging rights. "I shot a 14 point", "Oh yea, but you paid for it". Personally who cares. I have shot my share of wall hangers, but you will not see one on my wall. I dont believe in trophy hunting, but as long as the meat is not wasted, I will not condem it. Same principle with the high fencers.




Whats all you anti fence people take on outfitters. I have more problem with outfitters, buying animals and releasing them to be shot. I went on a Pheasent hunt once that was done this way. I couldnt bring myself to shot one. The darn birds were following us. The other guys bagged out with in 50 yards. I didnt condem them, dont want the practice outlawed, and dont get my undies in a bunch, just didnt like the idea. It was more like shooting someones pet. I also dislike the outfitters buying up all the land, making it impossible for regular guys to hunt. If this is the gripe on high fences, I can see the point. Still dont condem it. If the gripe is," he shot his 12 point behind a fence after paying for it and I set in a tree waiting on mine, no fair"then cry to someone else.

jerseyhunter

What about hunting on an Island is that fair chase? I was thinking Long Island not Anticosta.

JerseyJim

This topic is giving me a headache!!!!!! I have never hunted in a fence. I might if given the chance! 10,000 acres is a huge piece of land fenced or not! Doing things to better your chances at bagging a nice buck is fine with me. Shooting a deer let out of a pen 4 hours earlier is a bit lame. I don't like hunting for stocked birds either. I do like to fish for stocked trout though. I use lures too! That whole pointy stick thing just wasn't working out! LOL!! Is that fair chase? I've used dogs for rabbits. Is that fair chase? Ask the rabbits how fair it is! To each of you I say this. Hunt the way that makes YOU happy! We are not machines programmed to be the same. If you don't like it don't do it. If someone else likes it so be it! They may not like the way you hunt! Oh well! Put yourself in the middle of that 10,000 acre's and see how long it takes you to find your way out! Then tell me how bad these poor deer have it! To me it seems they are just as wild as any other deer but the QDM is more in effect where they are. QDM seems to be what most of you want so why bash these people for finding a way to do it on thier land? Some of you make no sense at all! I also like deer drives, food plots and I don't let the little ones go so they can grow! Any and every antlered buck is a trophy to me! Any deer I harvest period is a trophy to me! But thats just me and I'm sure I'll be bashed for the way I like to hunt because it's not the same way you like to hunt. LOL! Anicosta Island would be a treat to hunt if you ask me. I'm saving up to take my father there! Life long dream of his! Happy hunting everyone!

lhook7

T Roy,

Who no longer considers this, "fair chase?"

charlie brown

Ok, I have read most of these posts and have tried to this point to stay out of the argument. But what the heck. I feel that there is a BIG difference in the type of fences we are talking about here. I hunt behind fences all the time, does that make me an un-ethical hunter. I think not. Now let me define the fences I hunt behind. Every time I go onto National Forest Land to chase deer, or get off at the next interchange and cross that cattle guard onto BLM land, I am hunting behind a fence. In some areas the amount of fencing is down to 640 acres (1 square mile) for grazing allotments. The railroad has their tracks fenced off within about 100 feet I believe it is (their right of way). There are 60,000 + acre cattle ranches that stand in the way of deer, elk, and antelope wintering and summering grounds. Does this slow the Deer, elk, antelope, and other big game migrations and movements down? Not one bit!! Antelope can go from a 50 MPH run, see a 4 STRING BARBED-WIRE FENCE, come to a complete stop in a matter of seconds, scoot under it, and be back up to 50 MPH in no time. Deer don't even slow down!! Elk take a little more time than deer, but don't let this fool you, Elk DO run fast.

Now, taking a smaller area (lets say about 2000 acres) and putting an 8 FOOT FIELD FENCE around the perimeter is simply not right!! The deer DO NOT have enough room to roam. So who cares if a deer's home range is only, say 100 acres? What if he wants to pick up and move one day, what if there is a sick one in the encloser? Seems like we could kind of start some trouble here!!

Now, this ranch that was being discussed in Texas (can't remember the name now, and don't care to go back and find it) is this low, 4ft high barbed wire fence. I guerentee the deer hardly know it exists being how large that ranch is, and even the ones that do know it exists just see it as something to jump over to get where they want to go.

Now, take for example my signature pic. This was taken in Northern Nevada. You are looking at probably about 30,000 acres, maybe a little more. There are probably about 20-25 miles of fences in the picture alone. Deer, elk, and antelope migrate through this area ANNUALLY, and have for years. Just looking at the corner posts and t-posts, the fence has probably been there for the better part of 50 years.

NOW ATTACK ME AS YOU WILL, BUT BE SURE TO READ MY ENTIRE POST BEFORE RESPONDING!

ELKINMTCWB

I hear it all the time lets stop the fence hunts.DEER FARMS elk farms are just long legged cows behind fences.

I for one think that once agin HUNTERS are fighting HUNTERS.From how I see it it cost a lot of $ to hunt in fences allso to hunt with a good guid. The poor people have to look for there kills in a cheep way,public land or ask.

To me there is no difrants in GUIDED hunts and FENCED hunts. In bouth casses some one takes you to the animal says set here in just a few mins they will come out right there.

The difrants being if you miss the 1st shoot with no fence they can run away totaly with a fence the rancher dose not get to loose his animal.

Jack Ryan

Deer videotaped, drugged before kills, farm guests testify
Weather cuts short Day 3 in trial of high-fence hunting operator
By Rebecca S. Green
The Journal Gazette

Bellar

SOUTH BEND – Hunters willing to pay thousands of dollars to kill deer at a controversial high-fence deer farm outside Peru were able to bag multiple bucks and in some cases pick out specific deer in advance by watching videotape, according to testimony Wednesday in federal court.

Guests and undercover conservation officers who visited Bellar’s Place testified about their experiences as part of the U.S. government’s case against owner Russell G. Bellar, who is accused of running an illegal deer hunting operation.

Dean Davis, a video editor from Mississippi, told the jury he had seen the property manager at Bellar’s Place dart a deer with a tranquilizer gun to sedate the animal. Then the property manager, Hinds Tom Jones, used a small front-end loader to move the deer into a smaller pen to be hunted, Davis said.

That deer was later shot by an undercover officer with the Indiana Department of Natural Resources posing as a hunter during the investigation.

As owner of the 1,400-acre deer farm, Bellar is facing a 38-count indictment by a federal grand jury. The indictment charges Bellar and Jones with violating the Lacey Act, a federal wildlife protection law.

The Lacey Act prohibits the transportation and sale in interstate commerce of any wildlife taken or possessed in violation of any state law. According to the indictment, Bellar’s Place was the site of a number of hunts illegal under Indiana law.

The indictment charges Bellar and Jones with illegally selling and transporting wildlife across state lines, facilitating the illegal killing and transportation of wildlife and knowingly providing false information to federal agents. Monday morning, Jones entered a guilty plea to one count of the indictment in exchange for his testimony against his boss.

Wednesday’s testimony was the second full day of evidence presented in the jury trial before Judge Allen Sharp in U.S. District Court for the Northern District of Indiana in South Bend. Sharp dismissed court about three hours early because of the weather, with snow falling heavily throughout the day outside the courthouse. A few jurors were put up in an area hotel because of poor road conditions south of the city.

Davis, who makes videos for a hunting call company, had traveled with his girlfriend to Bellar’s Place to help train a cameraman on new editing equipment, according to testimony. During his few days at the farm in December 2003, Davis said, Jones asked him to help move a deer. He said Jones had shot the buck with a tranquilizer.

While his employer had told him not to hunt while at Bellar’s Place, Davis said his girlfriend killed a deer at the farm after an invitation from Jones.

When asked by Assistant U.S. Attorney Donald Schmid whether he ever hunted white-tailed deer inside a high fence, Davis said he did not.

“I haven’t hunted anything that couldn’t get out of it if it was willing,” he said.

Zeferino Villafana, of Logansport, testified he worked for Bellar for about 18 months. He said he saw Jones use a tranquilizer to sedate a buck and move it into another pen, then use another drug to wake it up.

Dennis Zahn, one of Bellar’s three lawyers, asked Villafana under cross-examination whether he had ever seen deer drugged to collect semen.

Villafana said he had.

“Have you ever seen a deer darted to make them slower during a hunt?” Zahn asked.

“No,” Villafana said.

As in the past two days, a number of hunters from Southern states testified they had shot and killed trophy bucks within the past few years at Bellar’s Place. Many did not have Indiana hunting licenses, and some told the jury they killed four or five bucks in a few days on the farm, paying up to $29,000 in total for the deer they killed. State law prohibits taking more than one antlered deer during a single year.

Four large trophy mounts, one with 18-point antlers, leaned against a row of chairs facing the jury for much of the day Wednesday, each killed by Roger Barker, an Alabama businessman.

The 18-point buck, which cost $20,000 to kill, had been named “J.B.” and was identified before the hunt in a video sent to Barker by Bellar’s Place, Barker testified.

State law bans the hunting of specific deer.

Also Wednesday, the government presented a number of workers from the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Indiana Department of Natural Resources who testified about computer and video evidence collected at Bellar’s properties.

Jack Ryan

Only the kind of candy a$$ jerk who pays thousands of dollars to shoot a doped up deer in a six acre shooting pen thinks this is about hunters against hunters.

Only them and the patsies they pay off and have fooled.

Some where hunters have got to draw the line and say "You jerk. That's not hunting." or risk not even being able to recognise THEM SELVES one of these days.

For me that is shooting captured animals inside a fence I am paying some one else to allow me to shoot.

You draw your line where ever you want. I don't see YOU in the mirror every morning and if you don't want MY opinion you should address YOUR questions to the mirror. If you feel the need to ask, you already KNOW the TRUTH.