clearanceman

WV harvest went down the last couple of years too. Here they blamed a bad acorn crop in 2002 and 2003, fantastic this year. Could that be some of the cause in PA too?

Deer902

Oh no what will we do. And you talk about the supporters being trophy hunters. I thought a doe is just as good as a buck. You can't eat the horns, right.
How did we only save 9,300 1.5 yr old buck? We saved 50% of the 1.5 yr olds.

wvdeer4u

Good point clearanceman. I was going to a QDM meeting in Fairmont WV last march maybe and from washington PA to WV line near Mt Morris I saw over 200 deer on I-79. If anyone in Washington or Greene county isn't seeing any deer they better go ask there neighbors if they can hunt on there property cause there is no shortage of deer in those counties. I go through washington county and Allegheny 4 nights a week and I can go about 6 different ways and see deer every way every day.

SteveBNy

I drove roundtrip from Binghamton NY to Wilkes Barre yesterday and did not see one roadkill carcass on I 81. Same trip in Jan past years had the road practically littered- one time more than 30 were counted. Either the hgwy dept is removing them as they fall, the deer learned to use the crosswalks or there are a LOT less deer.

Steve

clearanceman

'
Wonder if the new 3 point on one side buck rule is responsible for the lowered buck kills? There aren't nearly as many legal bucks left in PA now. But it is because the law changed, maybe the population of bucks didn't change so much.

clearanceman

I think they are picking them up more. At least on 79 I have seen the truck more that picks them up. Man, what a crap job that would be, picking up dead deer on the side of the road....

cuernos1

All, Own a farm in Westmoreland County... Have been QDM hunting it since 1995..I had so many does that nothing would grow...I planted it they ate it...Some mornings I would look out the sliding glass door on our deck and a doe would be on it eating the plants... Are there any farmers out there?? I am one...Do the math..If I put 100 cattle in a 25 acre pasture you would all tell me I was an idiot..Now, put real cattle various critters and too many deer on one farm such as mine and I can't even grow plants on my porch.. Small underdeveloped bucks with poor food supply and he does not maintain a good body..

Now, I am a serious hunter...Love to hunt Ohio...HUGE BUCKS...Plenty of meat too...Scent control, clothes in tupperware, bow mostly...As I watch the herd here, this is what I have noticed... For years I never saw a real RUT...All I witnessed was yearlings trying to rut...They had weak bodies and were not developed... Not the same as mature rut bucks like in Ohio for example... I watched as small inferior bucks with bad racks passed on bad racks...Farm question again- If you have a poor quality horse or bull do you want to breed for better animals with the poorer quality animal or the stud?? We know that answer...

Back to the observations.. As these small poor quality bucks passed on these poor genetics I watched more strange animals emerging...Deformities were more numerous..Missing ears, additional things growing off them, etc...

Now, since Alt, things are changing... Far more mature bucks... 2.5 to 3.5 yr olds are there these days... But there are still those genetic questions we created a few years ago...additionally speaking let's do the math to address a few comments I saw earlier.. I think, I saw does make bucks and I hunt bucks... Correct.. but we are seeing the calm before the storm...

If we take 4 does and the drop a normal rate we see 4 go to 11-12, in farming areas and in mountinous regions 4 go to 8-9.

Farm first, using even numbers for this example 8 fawns will have a 50-50 break almost all the time...so we have 4 bucks and 4 does plus 4 older does for a total of 12 deer...
-if we shoot the old rate of bucks which was nearly 90%. We have 1 buck(2.5yr)
-if we shoot the same doe rate as the past we see 2 young does left and 3 older does for a total of 5 does
-young does produce 3 fawns and the older does will drop 6. which leaves us with 14 total deer - 9 fawns and 5 older does..
1- 2.5 yr old buck and 5 young bucks...90% kill ratio and we have 2-3 bucks
do this with each area....Does produce fast and bucks stay about the same...This is one herd...

Currently, we see the buck harvest dropping...No kidding huh? Well take a look at the flow of production...If those mature bucks are growing big enough to make the rules and overcoming genetic issues we created, we see that it takes about 3-4 yrs to get some growth.. And while we wait for the little ones to grow up we see the buck harvest go down...However, we are seeing more mature bucks...Now, for the hunter in me I can not resist this one for you older guys...Remember when you were 18yrs old and knew everything and dad knew nothing?? Won't admit it will ya...Well, dad knew not to do certain things and he got that from what we call experience... We on the other hand ran in blindly and got the I told ya so...Put that in deer...As we see these bucks get older they get smarter...with that comes scent control and really hunting...I passed 11 bucks this year...and that is with guys slip hunting my place when if they would ask I would let them if they stuck to the rules...

I went to a recent deer meeting and all I heard was crying about how there were no deer etc...Amid the camo clad, huntin boot wearin crowd I noticed them smokin and smellin... I asked a few of the loader fellows about how the season went and in a round about way asked about scouting and sets and got told some amazing info...Stuff I had forgotten... like how it didn't matter about smoking or smell but that from the old stand they hunted for the last (dig this) 12 yrs, they just were not seeing deer from it...My woods have changed each year and I have had to move stands etc... I have a few that work but with the new growth I see the deer moving to different areas of my farm...

Additionally, I have an area I call the sanctuary... I never go in there...It's about 25 - 30 acres... I saw more bucks headed that direction after the first shot, that it wasn't even funny...First morning this year 22 deer in the morning and 9 were bucks and 4 were shooters for most folks..They are still in my sanctuary area.... I passed...

Addressing the depletion gig...I hunt all over and it amazes me when I see a PA hunter in a camp and all they do is talk about how great the hunting is whereever we are and how bad it is at home... But those guys are usually the ones who are trying to fix things... They are really hunting....

Mark my words...If this thing goes the wrong way I hear Wal-Mart or subdivison for my farm... I will cut it up asap and buy a farm in a state like Ohio or Ill...

They call it hunting cause it ain't killin... Old saying one of my old redneck buddies has and I love it....

DJL

I have family in PA and the say you lucky if you can get an 150lbs. buck

mammasboy

I can hold back no longer. I have been reading so much of how the buck harvest has been dropping. That was the whole point!!!!! If people can't see that they should be taking home the does instead of the small bucks then that is somewhat disheartening. Send Alt over here to WI, we are not that different than PA with herd numbers and hunters, but we know that game management includes taking does and passing up bucks. ( Remember we have earn a buck and many areas are QDM. Went up north for two days this year and didn't see one deer. So what! I took does and passed up about twenty different bucks in the area that I live. Seeing deer and harvesting isn't what hunting is about.

chickory

Not disagreeing with you mammasboy......but yes that is the whole point.

Less deer=less deer in pa.

We are 'similar' to Wis, in our size and number of hunters, but you do not keep up with us in antlerless harvests. We are harvesting more than two antlerless to one antlered in pa. You are not even harvesting 2 antlerless for every buck...... Makes a big difference.

(pa = 142k buck 322k antlerless)
(wis = 192k buck but only 290k antlerless)

Hey back when we only took <300,000 doe we were taking 203,000 buck!

Not a hard concept. Pa hunters were pretty happy too when thier buck harvest was 190's and 200,000

But this year Mammasboy, pa's buck harvest is estimated to be 110,000 down from pre-Alt of 203,000.

Now you do THAT (take 2+ doe for every buck and drop your buck harvest by 93,000) in Wis. for a bunch of years.... then you can come back and tell us how all your partners like it!!! Guess what? I bet a few hunters there would not like it either.....

And I loved your depiction of hunting. Believe it or not...not everyone thinks walking through the woods not seeing any deer in the woods is very thrilling. Yea, I know, surprising huh?