Jarrey12

Thanks thats the answer I was looking for, and yeah I was kinda strting to lean more towards the synthetic stock cause its a little lighter.

700

If I was going to go backwards 45 years I would still go with a Remington 700 in 270 and top it with any Leupold Scope.45 years and I have never had to send a gun or scope in to be fixed.The 700 you will be able to hand down to you grandson..the Leupold scope is the only manufacture that will fix or replace a scope,even if your not the original owner or buyer.Thank God your friend reloads because at 59.00 a box that alot per shot ,for only 200 fps more or less than a normal 270

Nomercy448

Everybody has their idea of what's the best deer rifle, frankly, if you ask 10 guys, you'll get 15 different answers. The Browning in the .270WSM is a fine choice and will suit you well, so if you're not going to complain about expensive ammo, then it really doesn't matter to anybody else. Frankly, the only REAL down side to the WSM's is that Lapua doesn't make brass for them (yet, cross our fingers), so it's hard to find a really good set of brass (only place is winchester, and you have to cull through a lot to find a well matched set).

The biggest mistake that most new hunters make is that they haul WAY too much gear. My brother-in-law, for example, has a full frame pack that weighs in over 45lbs loaded. That'd be great if he was elk hunting in the mountains, but frankly, the kid never gets more than 300yrds from his car. He hauls that thing back and forth every single day, and never takes anything out of it. He keeps all of his stuff he needs during the hunt in his pockets.

Personally, I'm a minimalist. When I'm deer hunting, I use a MOLLE Vest (SPCS, thanks Uncle Sam!) that I assembled to haul everything I need. I arranged the pack so stuff I need during my hunt is readily accessible:

Flip down padded seat
Extra ammo (5rnds in the rifle, 5rnds in my pack)
Rangefinder
Field dressing tool
Game drag/hoist
Water (hydration bladder)
Granola bars
combo grunt and bleat call
12x binos
Tags and pen
Cell phone (ballistic calculator installed)
Extra handwarmers
Headlamp
bloodlight
Knife
Hand muff
rubber gloves

There's literally nothing on my back. I put on my hunting clothes in the morning, throw on this vest, and I'm good to do every task I might encounter, all without ever taking off my pack. I also very rarely unpack this rig, everything has its place, and I leave it there. The entire kit weighs about 8lbs without the water on board. I usually leave the padded seat flopping behind me, but I do have straps to snap it up against my back. Ultimately, I've never used a more comfortable pack.

When I'm elk hunting, I have a "camp kit" in a large Ruck and frame, giving me the ability to carry much more gear when necessary, but not need to carry it unless I need it. I CAN mount the ruck frame to the SPCS, but usually I carry it with an FLC so I can keep my "hunt pack" SPCS in place, and dump the camp kit when I don't need it.

IntroC

Short mags are a fad like bell bottom jeans only that shortmags will not come back in style. Ammo will become extremely hard to find and very expensive, this includes reloading supplies. Seems like a high price to pay for what little (if any)you gain. Just something to think about.

700

Thats a fact IntroC...my hunting partner thought he needed the 270 wsm...needless to say, its now in the safe and not used at all..He went right back to his 270.Somegthing you have to learn the hard way.The only good thing I see in wsm's are the wildcat cartridges and the like,other than that -theres nothing in North America a 270 cant kill.

Valentine

I'd send them to a big box store to look at all the wonderful products. Then I'd have them say to themselves, that many and most of those products they'll never own, even if they hunt for forty years.

I'd make sure through practice, I shot a lot better than hitting the broad side of a barn.

I'd tell them to learn patience and remaining quiet for periods of time. That off-season scouting and exercise is a good thing.

Nomercy448

I would respectfully, yet absolutely disagree. Yes, maybe the WSM's specifically could fall to the way-side, but I absolutely believe that the "short fat" case designs, as well as steep shouldered case designs, have definitely earned their stripes. There are actually VERY few cartridges on a bench at most matches any more that AREN'T short fats, and hunters are starting to figure out how applicable that case design is for hunting as well. There are TONS of rounds out there with the steep shoulder design, that have been well proven over the years for competitive applicaiton, as well as hunting: 22PPC, 6mm br, 6 Dasher, 6 BRX, 6.5-284, 7mm Rem BR, 6.5 JDJ, 7mm T/Cthe WSM's, the RSAUMS, the WSSM's, 22 BR, steep shouldered ackley imp's in .223, 243, etc etc, 6PPC6.5 Grendel, .284win, .284 Shehane, etc etc etc.

In all honesty, most of these "short fats" and steep shoulder actually are BETTER choices for hunters than benchrest shooters. A benchrest shooter will easily burn out the barrel in a 6.5-284 or .243 WSSM, whereas a long range deer or coyote hunter can capitalize on the fantastic downrange abilities, but won't be high enough volume to burn up a barrel very quickly.

Frankly, steep shouldered, high capacity cases aren't anything new anyway. Heck, the 300 Savage is almost 100yrs old, and it's a stubby little steep shouldered case! The .300 Savage isn't too far from being a ".30-30 Short Mag"! The .358win was a short fat little dude, introduced in 1955.

The .204 Ruger has earned it's well deserved spot as a venerable coyote cartridge, and it's in the "30 degree club".

Just because you like YOUR ROUND that's 100yrs old, doesn't mean that the new round that does the same exact thing, using less powder, isn't ACTUALLY better. Frankly, guys just need to grow up and admit that these are really great cartridges, by design. No, improving upon a .30-06 might not be necessary, but I had a '54 Dodge pickup that got me to work every day, and it sure doesn't look anything like my 2010 Ram! Guys have been pushing the shoulders on cartridges for almost as long as there were cartridges with shoulders to push. There's no reason to not like the "short fats" or the "30degree club", other than foolish pride or ignorance.

Just because you don't like looking at 30degree shoulders, doesn't mean they aren't great rounds. In reality, they deliver.

Nomercy448

The only REAL arguement I can understand out of say the .270win vs .270WSM debate, is guys are too cheap to spend an extra $10 on a box or two of ammo each year.

Frankly, if you're reloading, that expense flips around. Brass life is good, not great, but respectable, and the .300wsm does everything the .300win mag does, but with less powder. The .270wsm exceeds the .270win in velocity, and uses about 15-20% less powder to do it.

Better is better folks. Maybe you're too cheap to buy a Lexus, but don't try convincing people that a Fiat is just as good.

Jarrey12

thats the best way ive heard it been put yet!!!

Nomercy448

I really meant for the "lexus vs. Fiat" statement to apply to the .270WSM vs. the .270, but after re-reading some of the other posts, I think it's very apt for my opinion about equipment in general.

So here's the deal, if you ask a typical gun guy or hunter TODAY the question, "I'm a new hunter, what's a good rifle, scope, and cartridge for me?", you'll get one anwer, generally refering you to entry level stuff and a "do-all cartridge". Then if you turn around TOMORROW and ask the question "I want to upgrade from my entry level rig in a do-all cartridge, what's a good rifle, scope, and cartridge for me?", then you will get a very different answer, which will be more focused on the IDEAL rig.

ANY gun guy (except myself) will tell you that buying a good rifle and a budget friendly scope is a great idea, because you can always upgrade the scope later. MOST gun guys will tell you that buying an entry level rifle is a good idea, because you can always upgrade your rifle later. ANY gun guy will tell you that buying a "do-all cartridge" is a good idea, because it CAN kill anything you might ever hunt. The problem is that you're going to lose money every time you upgrade, and unless you never hunt the same thing twice, you don't need a cartridge that CAN kill anything.

It doesn't take long to outgrow entry level stuff. No, if you try it and give it up, you didn't lose much, but if you try it and like it, you'll basically end up losing all the money you spent on the entry level rig.

I fell for this "entry level" way of thinking at least 3 times:

My first deer rifle was a used Ruger Model 77 Mark II in .30-06, topped off with a Tasco 4-16x44mm, for $400. After only a year, I realized I needed a better scope, and that for my style of hunting (more time hunting coyotes than deer), I was overgunned. Since then, I have also learned enough about rifles to realize that Ruger probably wasn't my best choice. If I had known then what I know now, I never would have bought this rifle. I'm not saying it's a BAD rifle, but it definitely wasn't my best option.

So after a few years of saving money, I bought a pair of Remington 700's, one a 700 PSS (now 700 Police) in .308win with a Leupold scope, and a Remington 700 Varmint in .22-250, also with a Leupold scope. They were both very well suited to the tasks I needed of them, and they were on track with my abilities as a shooter. The problem was that now I had a $400 paperweight in the back of my closet. Then it didn't take me long to realize that instead of the cheaper 700 in .22-250, I really should have bought an AR-15 for coyotes, since in my area, getting doubles was very common. So I ended up selling the .22-250 and buying an AR-15.

So at that point, I had 2 rifles that were ideally matched to my hunting needs (deer and coyotes) and my abilities, the AR-15 rig costing about $1000 total, and the 700 PSS costing $1200. The problem was that I had spent $400 on my Ruger, and kept it, and I had spent $800 on the .22-250, sold it for $600, and bought a $1000 rifle. So ultimately, I was using $2200 in rifles, but had SPENT $2800.

All of these rifles did the jobs I needed them to do, but ultimately, the first few rifles I bought didn't line up with MY hunting style, so I lost money on them.

This isn't something that's specific to deer rifles.

I paid about $1500 in the late 90's for my first 3gun set. I went the "entry level" route with a Springfield GI 1911, Winchester Defender 1300, and a Ruger Mini-14 (cheaper than an AR-15 at the time). I spent 6months fighting with them trying to get them to run, then spent another 6months and another $1000-1500 gunsmithing on them trying to get them up to speed competitively, then I finally sold the set for $1800 to another newbie trying to get in on the cheap, and I bought a $3000 race ready set with an AR-15, Kimber 1911, and a Rem 11-87. Ultimately, I spent around $3000 on the first set, sold it and lost $1200, then spent $3000 on the set I should have bought in the first place. Basically, that $3000 set cost ME $4200.

I also tried to get into benchrest shooting on the cheap. I spent $200 on a used 700, $600 sleeving and truing the action, bought a budget stock for $150, then realized it sucked, sold it for $75 and bought a REAL benchrest stock for $250, had the factory trigger tuned for $100, then realized THAT sucked and bought a $150 trigger, bought a match barrel for $300, spent $500 putting it together (back in the late 90's), and bought a Nikon 6-24x scope for $400. Then I spent about a year, and another $1000-1500 back and forth to the gunsmiths trying to get it down where it needed to be competitively. Totalled up, I spent between $3500 trying to get that rifle up to speed. $3500 would STILL buy a bench ready ground-up custom rifle that would shoot better than that rifle out of the box. After about another year, I sold the rifle (with a new barrel) for $2000 and had a custom rifle built for $2500. Ultimately, now I had a $2500 rifle, that I had spent $4000 for.

Two years ago, my cousin's son and one of his buddies wanted to get into trap shoots. My cousin was a national level trap shooter, so he let his boy use one of his guns, while the friend tried to go cheap and bought a mid-level FIELD O/U, not a trap gun. Just like my headaches with re-fitting my competition guns, the kid was at my cousins shop all the time over a year trying to polish a turd. Then after a year, he sold the field gun (at a loss) and bought a used line-ready TRAP gun, for about the same price that he had dumped into the field gun.

My brother-in-law is another great example. He bought a Mosin Nagant 5yrs ago as his first deer/hog rifle, and spent a bunch of money sporterizing it, putting about $400 into the gun total. After only a year, he wanted something better (lighter and better ammo selection mostly), so he sold the Nagant for $150 and bought a Stevens .308win for $500. Fast forward to today, and he wants a 700 SPS and a Leup. The new rig will run about $1000, and he's selling his Stevens for $350. If that pans out, he'll have spent $1400 to end up with a $1000 rig.

He is also in want of a Rem 700 .22-250 for coyotes, which is also going to run him about $1000. Frankly, if he would have bought two Remington 700's 5yrs ago, he would have spent about $1600-1800 total for both of them. But now, with the path he took to get the SAME RIFLES HE COULD HAVE BOUGHT 5YRS AGO, he's going to end up spending a total of $2400.

Beyond all that, "do-all cartridges" really aren't "do-all's" at all, they're rounds that are JUST big enough to do the biggest work, but are really ideal for something in the middle, and are way over-kill for the small stuff. It's like a 10lb sack. A 10lb sack can hold 5lbs, it can hold 10lbs, and sometimes, you can even pack 11lbs into it, but it's really MADE to hold 10lbs. "Do-all cartridges" are great for guys that tend to hunt ONE thing a lot, but might to a LOT of things ONCE.

If we're honest, a .30-06 is probably at the top end for whitetail rounds, putting it great for elk, a little light but CAPABLEfor big bears, moose, and bison, and way too much for coyotes, bobcat, etc.

I'm not just knocking "do-all cartridges" either. I LOVE the .30-06, and have used that same Ruger of mine for a lot of different game: prairie dogs, coyotes, bobcats, fox, antelope, whitetails, elk, blackbear, and bison. But honestly, I use that rifle because I love it, and I have pride in the fact that I've used the SAME rifle for several different game species. At the same time I FULLY recognize that I was undergunned on a 1600lb bison, I lost a lot of value on my coyote hides, and I spent a LOT of money (plus a sore shoulder!) at the bench popping prairie dogs. I use that rifle more for the nostalgia and pride, not because it's the "ideal" rifle for those tasks.

So ultimately, my advice is think about what you would really want if money was less of an issue, what you would really want 5yrs from now, and what you're really going to be hunting with this rifle. Entry level rifles in "do-all cartridges", in my book, are great for someone that wants a rifle, but doesn't really expect to hunt much. Similarly, "Do-all cartridges" are great for someone that really wants to prove that they can hunt EVERYTHING with one rifle, but if you're going to be spending a LOT of time hunting small game, AND/OR a lot of time hunting BIG game (not whitetails), plan on having more than one rifle.