NY Harvester

RWK, CharlieP; Thank you for setting me straight. Before I fly of the handle at Mrs. Clinton Perhaps I should discern the differenceof the NY state senate and the US senate. My mistake.[&o]While my politics and Mrs Clintons are as different as they could be I owe an apology for calling her out on something she has nothing to do with.
JCChartboy, Thank you for the considerable info you have posted in this thread , I am quite sure it took a fair amount of time and effort. Our forefathers intentions were for a well informed public to aid our elected representatives in governing. I'm also sureyour efforts herehave informed many about the details of this bill, I for one. While looking at the details ofthis bill doesn't look as threatening as one would think by justreading the headlines. It still has enough teeth to start the anti- gun ball rolling down that slippery slope IMO.
This one in particularmakes me feelVERY uneasy. http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A02466&sh=t Notany legislation I would support.[:@]
I feel this one is also a threat to ownership rights in general. http://www.twelvehorses.com/ct/8AFDQI/CADUF2UX/*http:/assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?bn=A04471&sh=t
Thechild safety and ammunition regulationsections of this bill do seem resonable enough to me.
I agree 100% , and thanks again for shedding light on this issue.
NYH

Charlie P

Quote:

Well I ain't sure about the rest of your post BUT I can not imagine why ANYONE needs a 50 Cal weapon ... Im not talking about black powder muzzleloaders ..That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. ..your sure not going to hunt with it

The 2nd Amendment doesn't have anything to do with hunting.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Security of a free state. You think the framers might have known there might be a time when the goverment might get out of control and the people would need to rise up against it?

From the declaration of Independence.

That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.


What does Shall not be infringed mean?

Military type weapon? What is one of the most effective sniper rifles every used by our military?


Remington 700 Classic model:Caliber - 308 Win. (7.62x51mm), Barrel length - 24" (610 mm), Overall length - 43.625" (1110 mm), Magazine capacity - 4, Weight - 7.25 lbs (3.3 kg).
The concept of Remington 700 rifle is based on classic Mauser bolt-action scheme and combines great ballistic performance, excellent reliability and perfect design. Remington 700 remains one of the most popular bolt-actions among hunters and sport target shooters for many decades. Remington 700 line involves more than dozen of various models differ in caliber, barrel length, stock material and finishing. Calibers available (caliber depends on specific model) - 17 Rem., 204 Ruger, 221 Rem., 223 Rem., 22-250 Rem., 243 Win., 25-06 Rem., 270 Win., 7 mm Rem. Mag., 7mm Rem. Ultra Mag., 30-06 Sprg, 300 Win. Mag, 300 Rem. Ultra Mag., 308 Win.
The years of Vietnamese war showed that U.S. armed forces needed high-precision sniper rifle with considerable accuracy at ranges beyond 500 m, and Remington 700 was taken as a prototype for this sniper rifle, which was adopted later as M40 -> M40A1 model. M40A1 sniper rifle adheres to Remington 700 scheme, but has several modifications - heavy stainless steel barrel, composite stock.

Charlie P

Doctor Death, how many other rights are you willing to give up to "feel safe"?


Those same people can do more damage with diesel fuel and fertilizer.

Quote:

with that being said I think when it comes to handguns and legit hunting rifles they are crossing the line and"Treading" on my rights as a law abiding citizan to bare arms... JMO

Why handguns are used more often in a crime then any other gun. Your hunting rifle in the hands of a skilled marksmen could bring down a plane taking off or landing at an airport(one of the reasons sighted on 60 minutes for banning the Barrett.)


JCC, Posted a list of people arrested commiting crimes that had .50 cals on them. How long would that list be if he included handguns and hunting rifles.

What's the current definition of an assault rifle and do you trust politicians enough to stick to that definition in the future?

DoctorDeath

Im NOT trying to get into ANOTHER pissing battle but with that logic are you saying thatANY law abbiding citizanshould be able to possess ANY type of weapon ...like a sholder fired missle ... hand granades ... anti tank guns ...I mean come on ..there has to be some common sence used here ..I know our fore fathers ment well but when they wrote this they only had flintlock rifles, pistiols,tommyhawks and old cannons ... I HATE new laws that infrindge on my libertys BUT some make sence ... well at least to some of us ... why does ANYONE need an automatic assualt rifle or a BMG 50Cal ..I am NOT talking about semi-autos IWOULD have a problem with that... I mean really ...I would hate to be a police officer knowing that those were out on the street ... Im sorry guys it just does not make good sence to me.

dd

Alsatian

JCChartBoy: I don't agree with your analysis that all the proposed legislation constitutes "common sense." For example, when I walk into Bass Pro Shops I can find several shelves of ammunition about 5' high and 40' long. I sure would not want to have to shelf and unshelf all that ammunition every day, yet that seems to be the purport of one of the pieces of legislation. And how much additional safety does this provision give anyone? Precious little I imagine. Why is it common sense to outlaw the ownership of 50 caliber centerfire ammunition? That defies my capacity of reason. We live in a free society, a free nation. This means we don't all have to eat vanilla ice cream, we don't all have to eat chocolate ice cream. If some law abiding citizen wants to own an expensive, several thousand dollar 50 caliber BMG rifle -- we are a free country, let the guy own the rifle! I don't want one, but what does my specific personal set of preferences have to do with it? The "common sense" banning of ammunition useable in a pistol concerns me too. Aren't there pistols that fire high power centerfire rifle cartridges, such as a .243? Doesn't a frangible projectile "read on" a hollow point jacketed .243 bullet or a soft nose jacketed .243 bullet?

I'm not buying the "common sense" gun legislation song. The well considered gun legislation has long since been enacted. Ban 50 caliber rifles? Lots of bank robbers are carrying those things around. Lots of terrorists are using those to enact their nefarious plots. Lets ban cell phones. Definitely a high probability that they will be used, as they have been in Iraq, to set off demolitions here in the US. This is a more plausible threat, in my view, than the possibility that the terrorists will shoot down a commerical airliner with a 50 caliber BMG. Let's ban cars which have more engine power than "reasonably needed" to operate the vehicle. A car that can only carry two occupants adn not designed to tow a boat -- a Z-6 Corvette -- sure doesn't need a 405 horsepower engine. I would not be surprised to find overpowered cars and boats driven recklessly -- and isn't that the entire purpose of excessive power -- kill more people in the US every year than firearms used in crime.

Charlie P

A Barrett is about 5 ft long not really the type of weapon your going to hide from a police officer,now is it? However a snub nosed revolver or 9 mm glaock he might not know you have on you until you shove it in his face.

The founding fathers never invisioned a Remnington 700that snipers have used to kill people at over a mile.

http://www.awbansunset.com/whatis.html
Go to this sight and read up on waht an assault rifle is.


Rifles
Specifically, a rifle is considered an "assault weapon" if it can accept a detachable magazine, and possesses two or more of the following features:
[ul]Folding or telescopic stock
Pistol grip protruding conspicuously beneath the stock
Bayonet mount
Flash suppressor or threaded barrel
Grenade launcher [/ul]
[ul][/ul]
[ul]You think this is just about automatics? There have been federal laws on the books for years concerning fully automatic weapons.[/ul]

Alsatian

DoctorDeath: The definition of "assault weapons" in the current gun control domain is construed to include semi-automatic weapons. Fully automatic weapons -- aka "machine guns" -- have long been regulated, since about 1933 I think. To own a machine gun requires a hefty permit fee and substantial background vetting. While not strictly "banned," private machine gun ownership is virtually non-existent. When talking about banning "assault weapons" what is meant is banning semi-automatic weapons. Of grave concern is what semi-automatic weapons get pulled in under this umbrella.

No one is advocating private ownership of bazookas and Rifle Propelled Grenades rifles or atomic bombs. This characterization of the position of others in this matter is off base. But again, the second amendment doesn't talk about "need" or "hunting arms." I don't see why a law abiding citizen cannot own and lawfully employ a 50 cal BMG for whatever suits him, for example long range target shooting. I hear the 50 Cal BMG is quite well suited to this activity. Why should this freedom be denied to these people who do indulge in this activity? What bonafide threat or hazard is mitigated by banning these 50 cal BMG rifles?

There are already enough gun control laws. I would argue that there is no statistical correlation between gun control laws and crime rates or between increased gun control laws and decreased crime rates.

Charlie P

D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii)a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

Haven't gone out and bought one of those new Turkey guns with the pistol grip stock have you?

Charlie P

Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 921 of the United States Code states:
The term ''semiautomatic assault weapon'' means -
(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as -
(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models);
(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and Galil;
(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
(iv) Colt AR-15;
(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
(vii) Steyr AUG;
(viii)INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;
(B) a semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii)a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii)a bayonet mount;
(iv) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor; and
(v) a grenade launcher;
(C) a semiautomatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of -
(i) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(ii)a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
(iii)a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned;
(iv) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded; and
(v) a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and
(D) a semiautomatic shotgun that has at least 2 of -
(i) a folding or telescoping stock;
(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
(iii)a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and
(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.
Exemptions to the law:
Title 18, Chapter 44, section 922 states:
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection.
(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -
(A) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms, specified in Appendix A to this section, as such firearms were manufactured on October 1, 1993;
(B) any firearm that -
(i) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
(ii) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or
(iii) is an antique firearm;
(C) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition; or
(D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.
The fact that a firearm is not listed in Appendix A shall not be construed to mean that paragraph (1) applies to such firearm. No firearm exempted by this subsection may be deleted from Appendix A so long as this subsection is in effect
APPENDIX A CENTERFIRE RIFLES - AUTOLOADERS
Browning BAR Mark II Safari Semi-Auto Rifle Browning BAR Mark II Safari Magnum Rifle Browning High-Power Rifle Heckler & Koch Model 300 Rifle Iver Johnson M-1 Carbine Iver Johnson 50th Anniversary M-1 Carbine Marlin Model 9 Camp Carbine Marlin Model 45 Carbine Remington Nylon 66 Auto-Loading Rifle Remington Model 7400 Auto Rifle Remington Model 7400 Rifle Remington Model 7400 Special Purpose Auto Rifle Ruger Mini-14 Autoloading Rifle (w/o folding stock) Ruger Mini Thirty Rifle
Large Capacity Magazines
Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 921;
(31) The term ''large capacity ammunition feeding device'' -
A) means a magazine, belt, drum, feed strip, or similar device manufactured after the date of enactment of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 that has a capacity of, or that can be readily restored or converted to accept, more than 10 rounds of ammunition; but
B) does not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.
The United States Code also describes other types of firearms:
Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 921;
The term ''shotgun'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. The term ''short-barreled shotgun'' means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification or otherwise) if such a weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
The term ''rifle'' means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
The term ''antique firearm'' means -
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii)uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ''antique firearm'' shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.
The term ''semiautomatic rifle'' means any repeating rifle which utilizes a portion of the energy of a firing cartridge to extract the fired cartridge case and chamber the next round, and which requires a separate pull of the trigger to fire each cartridge.
The term ''handgun'' means -
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled. Exemptions as defined in Title 18, Chapter 44, Section 922
(v) (1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection.
(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -
(A) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms, specified in Appendix A to this section, as such firearms were manufactured on October 1, 1993;
(B) any firearm that -
(i) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
(ii) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or
(iii) is an antique firearm;
(C) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition; or
(D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.
The fact that a firearm is not listed in Appendix A shall not be construed to mean that paragraph (1) applies to such firearm. No firearm exempted by this subsection may be deleted from Appendix A so long as this subsection is in effect.
(4) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to -
(A) the manufacture for, transfer to, or possession by the United States or a department or agency of the United States or a State or a department, agency, or political subdivision of a State, or a transfer to or possession by a law enforcement officer employed by such an entity for purposes of law enforcement (whether on or off duty);
(B) the transfer to a licensee under title I of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 for purposes of establishing and maintaining an on-site physical protection system and security organization required by Federal law, or possession by an employee or contractor of such licensee on-site for such purposes or off-site for purposes of licensee-authorized training or transportation of nuclear materials;
(C) the possession, by an individual who is retired from service with a law enforcement agency and is not otherwise prohibited from receiving a firearm, of a semiautomatic assault weapon transferred to the individual by the agency upon such retirement; or
(D) the manufacture, transfer, or possession of a semiautomatic assault weapon by a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary.
(w) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for a person to transfer or possess a large capacity ammunition feeding device.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any large capacity ammunition feeding device otherwise lawfully possessed on or before the date of the enactment of this subsection

Charlie P

Take the assault weapons challenge and see how many you get right.

http://www.ont.com/users/kolya/AR15/awc.htm