DEER DRIVES NOT HUNTING
09-14-2005, 12:04 PM
#41
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: ne bama
Posts: 6,340
RE: DEER DRIVES NOT HUNTING
huntnma several years ago one of the schools in the south was commisioned to study the effect of doggin deer, while it is not my prefered metheod of hunting i dont have a problem with people that want to do it, the study, which i will try to find for this board,stated that running deer with dogs had no more of an effect on a deer herd than any other factors that deer face daily, people have hunted deer with dogs as long as i can remember, they seem like there holding out pretty well, most of south bama has gotten away from dog drives and our deer population has exploded, i have not even figured how many deer we can legally harvest here in a year, all i know is that if you did take a "limit" you'd need a couple of walk in coolers
here is some data on capture myopathy
Why deer die
By Deerfarmer.com
Jul 25, 2003, 19:49
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In the fall of 2000, Dr. John Berezowski of the Western College of Veterinary Medicine (Saskatoon, Canada) sent out a survey to identify what diseases affect the deer industry in Canada and the United States. Some 167 deer/elk farmers (32% of the total sample) and 8 veterinary labs returned the surveys. The total numbers of deer/elk upon which the results are based was approximately 5,200.
The study found the following death rates - 22% among fawns, 5% among yearlings and 4% among adults.
Deaths occurred during birthing - 2.9% among adult does, 2.2% among yearlings and 27% in assisted births. Assistance is necessary during problem births, so it should be expected that there will be some mortality.
The study found that fawn survival rates were 89% to one month, 82% to weaning and 78% to one year of age. When fawns die, some 49% do so within the first month. From a production standpoint, care for fawns during their first month is critical to ensure high survival rates.
According to this study, there were two major causes of death in deer and elk - emaciation and trauma.
The major causes for emaciation were:
[ul][*]improper nutrition[*]parasites - brown stomach worm (important to de-worm)[*]behavioural causes - the "pecking" order[*]problems with teeth[*]unspecified disease[*]capture myopathy[*]MCF - possibly a new strain of virus[*]grain overload[*]other - usually some infectious diseases. [/ul]
The study found that deer and elk farmers need to pay more attention to handling of animals. Too many animals are injured or killed during handling. Farmers must have facilities that reduce risk of injury or death to the animals. Training is also important - for both the farmers and the animals. "Trained" animals are easier and safer to handle.
Capture myopathy
The study found that mortality due to capture myopathy was 6% among fawns, 12.5% among yearlings and 20.6% among adults.
Capture myopathy (or white muscle disease) is a response by the deer to stressors in its environment. The type of response to stress is affected by several factors - species, age, previous experiences, general health, genetics and learned/innate behaviour.
The immediate reaction to stress is the "fight or flight" syndrome. The adrenals secrete adrenaline. Persistent stress raises reaction to a dangerous level.
The mid-term effects of stress are: a) release of ACTH from the pituitary gland, b) the animal is on high alert, c) the animal becomes worn out, and d) the deer becomes susceptible to disease.
Severe stress over days or weeks can cause chronic corticosteroid production and adrenal exhaustion. The secondary effects include metabolic upset, loss of body condition, loss of reproduction, and increased susceptibility to stress and death.
Stress causes anaerobic metabolism, which results in chemically stored energy, lactic acid and cramping and muscle damage. Lactic acid damage contributes to capture myopathy.
Capture myopathy is a syndrome of acute or chronic degradation resulting from stressful activity such as a pursuit of the susceptible animal. It can occur without exercise (animal does not have to be chased). Capture myopathy can occur both during physical and chemical restraint. It occurs in most animals, but especially in ungulates. It has been reported in birds and even fish.
Fear and anxiety plus excessive body heat plus too much adrenaline will result in capture myopathy.
The clinical signs of capture myopathy include sudden death within 24 hours, depression, rapid shallow breathing, and failure to recover from anesthesia. Death can occur after several hours of symptoms, or from cardiac arrest. The animal may also appear to recover, but has heart damage. It may die at the next stressful event.
Other symptoms include stiffness or lameness, swollen muscles and brown urine (due to myoglobin excretion which may lead to damage of the kidneys).
There is no treatment for capture myopathy. Therefore, prevention is critical. This can be done through good planning, good facilities and trained animal handlers.
Minimize the time of restraint. Some vets use anti-psychotic handling drugs. Long lasting tranquilizers are useful for translocation and prolonged handling. Keep the duration of immobilization as short as possible, and reverse it.
Selenium and Vitamin E deficiency can contribute to capture myopathy. Be sure that your animals are getting adequate amounts in their diet.
Don't handle or immobilize animals in the heat of the day. This significantly increases the risks. Also, if you have to redo immobilization, then just quit, the risk is too great.
Good production and management techniques require the minimization of animal mortality. Addressing the issues discussed will assist farmers to increase production and the profitability of their operations.
Deer Farmers' Information Network
www.deerfarmer.com
Top of Page
Production
Articles
Summer tips for reindeer farmers
Autopsies - a source of information
Quality assurance in the elk industry
What DNA can do for me
Why deer die
Handling of whitetails - Part IV
Handling whitetails - Part III
Handling whitetails - Part II
Is you quality assurance up to standards?
Handling whitetails - Part I
Preparing your deer and elk for winter
Buying breeding stock
The follies of tranquilizing deer
Transporting deer and elk
Elk on a beef farm
here is some data on capture myopathy
Why deer die
By Deerfarmer.com
Jul 25, 2003, 19:49
Emailthisarticle
Printerfriendlypage
In the fall of 2000, Dr. John Berezowski of the Western College of Veterinary Medicine (Saskatoon, Canada) sent out a survey to identify what diseases affect the deer industry in Canada and the United States. Some 167 deer/elk farmers (32% of the total sample) and 8 veterinary labs returned the surveys. The total numbers of deer/elk upon which the results are based was approximately 5,200.
The study found the following death rates - 22% among fawns, 5% among yearlings and 4% among adults.
Deaths occurred during birthing - 2.9% among adult does, 2.2% among yearlings and 27% in assisted births. Assistance is necessary during problem births, so it should be expected that there will be some mortality.
The study found that fawn survival rates were 89% to one month, 82% to weaning and 78% to one year of age. When fawns die, some 49% do so within the first month. From a production standpoint, care for fawns during their first month is critical to ensure high survival rates.
According to this study, there were two major causes of death in deer and elk - emaciation and trauma.
The major causes for emaciation were:
[ul][*]improper nutrition[*]parasites - brown stomach worm (important to de-worm)[*]behavioural causes - the "pecking" order[*]problems with teeth[*]unspecified disease[*]capture myopathy[*]MCF - possibly a new strain of virus[*]grain overload[*]other - usually some infectious diseases. [/ul]
The study found that deer and elk farmers need to pay more attention to handling of animals. Too many animals are injured or killed during handling. Farmers must have facilities that reduce risk of injury or death to the animals. Training is also important - for both the farmers and the animals. "Trained" animals are easier and safer to handle.
Capture myopathy
The study found that mortality due to capture myopathy was 6% among fawns, 12.5% among yearlings and 20.6% among adults.
Capture myopathy (or white muscle disease) is a response by the deer to stressors in its environment. The type of response to stress is affected by several factors - species, age, previous experiences, general health, genetics and learned/innate behaviour.
The immediate reaction to stress is the "fight or flight" syndrome. The adrenals secrete adrenaline. Persistent stress raises reaction to a dangerous level.
The mid-term effects of stress are: a) release of ACTH from the pituitary gland, b) the animal is on high alert, c) the animal becomes worn out, and d) the deer becomes susceptible to disease.
Severe stress over days or weeks can cause chronic corticosteroid production and adrenal exhaustion. The secondary effects include metabolic upset, loss of body condition, loss of reproduction, and increased susceptibility to stress and death.
Stress causes anaerobic metabolism, which results in chemically stored energy, lactic acid and cramping and muscle damage. Lactic acid damage contributes to capture myopathy.
Capture myopathy is a syndrome of acute or chronic degradation resulting from stressful activity such as a pursuit of the susceptible animal. It can occur without exercise (animal does not have to be chased). Capture myopathy can occur both during physical and chemical restraint. It occurs in most animals, but especially in ungulates. It has been reported in birds and even fish.
Fear and anxiety plus excessive body heat plus too much adrenaline will result in capture myopathy.
The clinical signs of capture myopathy include sudden death within 24 hours, depression, rapid shallow breathing, and failure to recover from anesthesia. Death can occur after several hours of symptoms, or from cardiac arrest. The animal may also appear to recover, but has heart damage. It may die at the next stressful event.
Other symptoms include stiffness or lameness, swollen muscles and brown urine (due to myoglobin excretion which may lead to damage of the kidneys).
There is no treatment for capture myopathy. Therefore, prevention is critical. This can be done through good planning, good facilities and trained animal handlers.
Minimize the time of restraint. Some vets use anti-psychotic handling drugs. Long lasting tranquilizers are useful for translocation and prolonged handling. Keep the duration of immobilization as short as possible, and reverse it.
Selenium and Vitamin E deficiency can contribute to capture myopathy. Be sure that your animals are getting adequate amounts in their diet.
Don't handle or immobilize animals in the heat of the day. This significantly increases the risks. Also, if you have to redo immobilization, then just quit, the risk is too great.
Good production and management techniques require the minimization of animal mortality. Addressing the issues discussed will assist farmers to increase production and the profitability of their operations.
Deer Farmers' Information Network
www.deerfarmer.com
Top of Page
Production
Articles
Summer tips for reindeer farmers
Autopsies - a source of information
Quality assurance in the elk industry
What DNA can do for me
Why deer die
Handling of whitetails - Part IV
Handling whitetails - Part III
Handling whitetails - Part II
Is you quality assurance up to standards?
Handling whitetails - Part I
Preparing your deer and elk for winter
Buying breeding stock
The follies of tranquilizing deer
Transporting deer and elk
Elk on a beef farm
09-14-2005, 02:53 PM
#43
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: palm bay fl
Posts: 4,504
RE: DEER DRIVES NOT HUNTING
ORIGINAL: Rebel Hog
huntnma, that's the way Seminoles hunted deer in the Glades. They stayed on
thier trail, till the deer got sick to it's stomachand layed down.
huntnma, that's the way Seminoles hunted deer in the Glades. They stayed on
thier trail, till the deer got sick to it's stomachand layed down.
09-14-2005, 06:33 PM
#44
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bennettsville, SC
Posts: 542
RE: DEER DRIVES NOT HUNTING
As I stated before, other than the past two years, I have dog hunted all my life.
I am not saying that this can't happen, but I have never found or know of anyone who has found a deer that died from this. I guess you would have to have anatopsy to actually find out, but I've never heard of anyone finding perfectallyhealthylooking deer dead.
Most dogs wear out before a deer will. A deer has a lot of natural preditors so he is used to being chased by coyotes and such. They aren't dumb. They know how to hit water to get read of the dogs or double back to get the dogs lost on their previous trail. I've seen deer stand in the middle of a beaver pond and look at dogs and walk right down the middle of a creek with nothing but their head sticking out.
A deer can travel miles a day in search of food, water, or a mate. I am sure that they are in more than good enough shape for a 15-25minutechase. And with that said, most dogs barely break trot stride while on a deer, so its not like the deer is running constantly. Most of the time if thedeerget out of the drive before anyoneshoots them or if they are just let go b/c they are too small or whatever, the dogs are stopped and put in the trucks to beturned out again on another drive.
I am not for sure if the comment on the deer being shot and left behind are for the dog hunting or what.We takepride in any deer that we shoot, rather it be a doe or wall hanger. If someone shoots and can not find the deer (even if they THINK they hit it andcan't even find blood) we willwaitan hour or so just like you would while still hunting, then take a tracking dog on a rope and go track the deer.I will assure you, I have walked many of miles looking for deer that were totally missed so I would be scared to count the ones that I actually walked and found the deer.
Most ofthe deer that I have shot while dog hunting fell in their tracks.You want to see how good of a shot youare, even with buck shot, try taking downrunningdeer at 35yds.
I am not saying that this can't happen, but I have never found or know of anyone who has found a deer that died from this. I guess you would have to have anatopsy to actually find out, but I've never heard of anyone finding perfectallyhealthylooking deer dead.
Most dogs wear out before a deer will. A deer has a lot of natural preditors so he is used to being chased by coyotes and such. They aren't dumb. They know how to hit water to get read of the dogs or double back to get the dogs lost on their previous trail. I've seen deer stand in the middle of a beaver pond and look at dogs and walk right down the middle of a creek with nothing but their head sticking out.
A deer can travel miles a day in search of food, water, or a mate. I am sure that they are in more than good enough shape for a 15-25minutechase. And with that said, most dogs barely break trot stride while on a deer, so its not like the deer is running constantly. Most of the time if thedeerget out of the drive before anyoneshoots them or if they are just let go b/c they are too small or whatever, the dogs are stopped and put in the trucks to beturned out again on another drive.
I am not for sure if the comment on the deer being shot and left behind are for the dog hunting or what.We takepride in any deer that we shoot, rather it be a doe or wall hanger. If someone shoots and can not find the deer (even if they THINK they hit it andcan't even find blood) we willwaitan hour or so just like you would while still hunting, then take a tracking dog on a rope and go track the deer.I will assure you, I have walked many of miles looking for deer that were totally missed so I would be scared to count the ones that I actually walked and found the deer.
Most ofthe deer that I have shot while dog hunting fell in their tracks.You want to see how good of a shot youare, even with buck shot, try taking downrunningdeer at 35yds.
09-14-2005, 07:53 PM
#45
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ponce de Leon Florida USA
Posts: 10,079
RE: DEER DRIVES NOT HUNTING
Strut I agree 100%. I dog hunted for over 20 years and never heard of a deer that died of myopathy. Only the lack of enough large tracts of land stopped us from dog hunting.
09-14-2005, 08:15 PM
#46
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 9,085
RE: DEER DRIVES NOT HUNTING
i use deer drives....its not as easy as you think.....look at how much land the deer can go through and never be seen.........its not like we drive them in the corner of a fence and walk up and whack them...deer are SMART...especially when getting away from danger.....even with the max of 25 guys allowed here we dont kill or see that many deer........we kill deer.....and see lots.....but theres a heck of alot more there then we see and kill......we know that...we rarely ever see a buck more then once.......we dont get him the first time we wont get him the majoraty of the time...you gota be a heck of alot smarter then sitting in a stand looking at a pile of corn in a field........drivers gota stay in line......where to walk...when its safe to shoot......where to get to before the deer get to........shooters gota know where the drivers are.......where to take stand.....where the other shooters are(orange or not its TOUGH sometimes) where the deer are most likely going to show up ect ect........its not walking through the woods scaring deer to someone to shoot....im sure 5 pages of posts they got you straight but this was just some of my 2 cents......i love when people try to bash deer drives........just means they never tried it......or did try but didnt do the scouting, planning, and communicating it takes to drive deer....have fun siting over the bait pile....ill have fun with my buddys drivin deer......i dont bash baiting......ive never done it..........have no desire too......but i wont bash your cup of coffee just because i dont do it or agree with it........i never did it...
09-14-2005, 08:22 PM
#47
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fulton county IL USA
Posts: 4,271
RE: DEER DRIVES NOT HUNTING
I could certainly do wthout the forced movement that is so popular with the gun hunters in this area. They "push" every small path of timber around here and then it generally ends up with several guys shooting at a running deer. By far, the vast majority of wounded animals can be found shorty after the firearm season in the timber tracts that have been "pushed". If someone really wants to hunt this way... go for it but I certainly will not allow this tactic on any of my property. Good luck and good hunting.
09-14-2005, 09:16 PM
#48
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: PA
Posts: 9,085
RE: DEER DRIVES NOT HUNTING
cornfed...your right...that is wrong....thats not fair to the animal.......we in my group dont shot deer that we dong know we can kill cleanly...you rarely hear more then one shot ring out at once from us....if you do it means the first guy missed and the deer ran to someone else...or the first shot got his and someone else is getting more...once in a while theres a wound and another shot or a miss and another shot...but they arent wild shots....and we dont like to loose deer.......our drive leader hates it.....and we do what we can to find hit deer.......and we usually do.....i cant think of any weve lost in the 2 years ive been driving with these guys......you guys should dig up the old threads on deer drives.....alot of info...just like this post....i myself did used to be a hater of drives.....i thought it was easy and everyone just mowed down deer as they ran by and it wasnt HUNTING......but i think its harder then stand hunting.....and we hunt more areas and more chances to see deer......most guys dont stand hunt around here due to the small size of the woodlots....its hard to stand hunt...make a noise or the wind swirls once and your done because the woods arent HUGE....im not saying we drive out 1/4 acre tracts...but we arent in the big woods that go on forever either....roads....fields ect break them up.......we usually stay on the farmers land and land he farms...and part of the farming agreement he has with the land owner whose land he farms is we get to hunt it....deer cause alot of crop damage here and they allow it....and most of them post their land because people damage stuff and litter ect....so we are the only ones that hunt alot of our areas...we try our best not to screw someones hunt....we drove through one guys spot....he didnt see a deer all day....and saw 3 bucks and a ton of does....he took a doe from our drive...and we helped drag it up the hill....he loved it....we got him a deer and helped him out........we had no idea he was there......and didnt figure anyone would hunt where he was......and we dont drive till after 10 or 11....let the stand hunters that do stand hunt have the mornings...and the farmer milks in the morning too.......we are courteous and try to do what we can.....its a good time every day out...alot of fun hunting with a group of 10 or so of your best friends....dont miss in a deer drive lol.......you wont live it down....i cant wait till this year to meet back up with them and bust some balls about the misses and bucks getting by last year lol........and hearing my last day last drive story.....herd of does came by...and the farmer was having a major deer problem there.....i took a doe.....tagged it....and took another...farmer was HAPPY.......2 less deer he has to feed out of his fields......but there was a herd of 15 or so on a little piece of land...spotting the field at nite showed us tons of deer plowing the corn down every night....
09-14-2005, 09:29 PM
#49
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location:
Posts: 11,472
RE: DEER DRIVES NOT HUNTING
ok I stayed out of this for 5 pages......
I'm going to be totally objective and open minded about this debate. I admit that a few years ago I would have been one to totally bash the "deer drive" method of hunting. I've learned throughout the years that the way of hunting I know and practice is not the only way. I can appreciate and respect all forms of hunting done in a legal manner. I just want to gain a better understanding of the thought process of this particular form.
Whew.... with that being said. I just don't understand it.
This statement may very well be tue. Is that all you are out there for though? I could probably "kill" deer every morning with my truck if I wanted to. The things I see wrong with deer drives are:
1. safety is a gigantic concern. I don't care how well planned the drives are, there are too many people involved and too many strange things happen with deer running around and a group of people shooting at them.
2. (my biggest pet peave). The idea is to jump the deer and get them running and strategically place the shooters in "the escape routes". That's all fine and good except for one thing. The deer are going about mach 10 across a field. Give me a break. I belive in one sure shot = one killed deer. You can NOT guarantee that with a deer drive. GJood way to wound some deer IMO.
3. Why not just hunt them in their natural habbitat? What's the need for the drives if everyone would hunt without them? I hear all the time "that's the only way to get them moving" or " you'll never see a big buck without pushing them". Well why do you think that is? Because everyone has the same mentalilty and romps through the woods on day 1 of gun season. What would happen if everyone just hunted them in their natural environment?
Why can I see 20 different bucks throughout bowseason and see maybe 2 bucks during gun season running 100 mph through an open field?
Again........ I'm not bashing deer drives anymore. I've accepted it as being what it is. I don't look down at anyone that practices it or think they are less of a hunter than me. It's legal and they have every right to hunt how they please. There are just some things about it that I don't think I'll ever understand the reasoning behind.
I'm going to be totally objective and open minded about this debate. I admit that a few years ago I would have been one to totally bash the "deer drive" method of hunting. I've learned throughout the years that the way of hunting I know and practice is not the only way. I can appreciate and respect all forms of hunting done in a legal manner. I just want to gain a better understanding of the thought process of this particular form.
Whew.... with that being said. I just don't understand it.
deer drives or small pushes are an excellent way to kill deer.
1. safety is a gigantic concern. I don't care how well planned the drives are, there are too many people involved and too many strange things happen with deer running around and a group of people shooting at them.
2. (my biggest pet peave). The idea is to jump the deer and get them running and strategically place the shooters in "the escape routes". That's all fine and good except for one thing. The deer are going about mach 10 across a field. Give me a break. I belive in one sure shot = one killed deer. You can NOT guarantee that with a deer drive. GJood way to wound some deer IMO.
3. Why not just hunt them in their natural habbitat? What's the need for the drives if everyone would hunt without them? I hear all the time "that's the only way to get them moving" or " you'll never see a big buck without pushing them". Well why do you think that is? Because everyone has the same mentalilty and romps through the woods on day 1 of gun season. What would happen if everyone just hunted them in their natural environment?
Why can I see 20 different bucks throughout bowseason and see maybe 2 bucks during gun season running 100 mph through an open field?
Again........ I'm not bashing deer drives anymore. I've accepted it as being what it is. I don't look down at anyone that practices it or think they are less of a hunter than me. It's legal and they have every right to hunt how they please. There are just some things about it that I don't think I'll ever understand the reasoning behind.
09-15-2005, 12:08 AM
#50
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bennettsville, SC
Posts: 542
RE: DEER DRIVES NOT HUNTING
GJood way to wound some deer IMO.
I am sure that you can statistically prove that theres just as many deer lost that were shot with bows and rifles by still hunters as deer drivers. And even LESS with dog hunting. As I mentioned above, we use a tracking dog. A dog's nose will find a deer faster than our eyes and ears put together.
Many people underestimate the killing power of buck shot. Take a properly pattern tested shot gun load it with 3.5'' 00 buck (which is what i shoot) and shoot a 50gal. steel drum at 35-40yds. Then draw your conslusion about the power of buckshot.
With all of that said, I am sure there are some people who dog drive and man drive in an inhumane way, so I am and will not stand up for them. But I also have heard of and seen guys shoot does and cull bucks and leave them lay there to rot, just to "cut down the numbers". You don't see me putting down all still hunters for that do you? Hell, i am going still hunting in the morning. Wish me luck.