archer 2

Arthur, I see what you are talking about but I have a question also. Now you say that the deflex riser the arrow will be on the string less time . Now the deflex riser is faster so actually the arrow could be on the string less actual time yet have a longer power stroke as compared to the normally slower deflex bow. I really think that the way the bows have advanced these last five or so years the difference between the reflex and deflex bows has lessened considerably unless you are shooting one that went to the extremes on reflex just for the sake of speed. I have shot both of course , I own two Icons, and have several Hoyts. I honestly cant tell that much difference anymore. I also have just ordered a 05 Protec which has a 1/2 deflex geometry and should be a shooter but I also love my Icons which has a reflex geometry and is a shooter also. I will agree that the early versions of bows that had reflex to them just for the sake of the speed factor were extremely hard to shoot consistantly but I think the advances made in bows nowdays has narrowed the gap.

Arthur P

I talked a bit about that myth on the other thread, archer 2. How can a difference of only 12/10,000ths of a second that a fast arrow is on the string vs a slower one impart any real increase in 'forgiveness' to a reflexed bow? That's comparing arrows on a bow with 7" brace and 30" draw, 250 fps arrow vs one at 300fps. I simply don't see it happening. The shooter would have to be torquing the grip from the get go for it to have any impact at all and he's still going to miss anyway. If that were the case, he'd be better off with the deflexed riser because it would be very difficult to torque to begin with.

Bows still have reflexed geometry simply for the sake of speed. Even with all the 'advances' you talk about, that's still the primary reason. Yes, with parallel limb technology, they have to use reflex risers to keep from having very high brace heights (and very slow arrow speed!). Sure, they can build a lot of weight forward mass into their reflex bows and put on teensie tiny grips, then the shooters add massive stabilizers, all for trying to make them a little harder to torque, but they're still torque-y sonuvaguns compared to a deflex riser.

You know, my back messed up on me really bad 15 years ago. I've lived with varying degrees of pain ever since. I don't remember what it was like to wake up in the morning without hurting. So many people have shot reflex riser bows for so long - and many have never shot anything but that kind of riser - that they don't remember or just flat don't know how steady a deflex riser bow holds on target, how much more leeway they have in how their hand is placed on the grip, or how consistent their shooting can be with one. Kinda like me with my back. It's hard to tell the difference between deflex and reflex riser bows when you haven't shot deflex in a long time.

Cougar Mag

I've shot my share of deflex riser bows, but there just isn't many made anymore..........plus a reflex riser looks cool.

Kidding Arthur!

Rack-attack

I agree that a deflex is more forgiving..............and in field archery it makes sense

But for hunting...or even target...with some basic proper form reflex riser bows with good brace hights are VERY accurate......

There are way more misses caused by high bow shoulders, to much weight, low draw elbows, flinching, spitting and plain ole panic then reflex risors cause......

I honestly do not see a problem with reflex risors on the better designed bows.


Oh.........and IMO......the cause for low brace heights being "less forgiving" has VERY little to do with "time arrow is spent on string"...............very little......

Len in Maryland

I started this post and Arthur has done a great job answering questions.

The one reason that I like less reflex is forgiveness. I'll explain in a minute. But first let me guess why someone like Norb Mullaney and others would make a statement such as someone said he/they did. In a shooting machine there will be no difference between the two designs. A Hooter Shooter will rack them and stack them. On the tournament circuit and in the hands of a GOOD shooter, there will be little difference. In the hands of a hunter, that is where the differences can show up.

Under the first two scenarios the target is usually stationary and you've got alloted time to shoot of up to two minutes (actually as long as you want in a Hooter Shooter). In a hunting scenario you've got usually something in the neighborhood of seconds and the target will move.

When I practice, I do it in two modes. First, like most others, I hold on target to see how well I can group, hit 'X's, or hit floating spots that can give you a variety of options/perspectives. Second, and this is where you see how forgiving your bow is, I 'snap shoot'. Snap shooting is where you shoot as many arrows as fast as you can at a spot, 'X' or whatever.

It is in the 'snap shoot' mode where you'll really notice the difference in reflex/deflex. For instance, I was shooting two different bows a while back that were identical in just about every respect. Both were high speed bows, both were within 1/2" of ATA, both had similar 'neutral' grips, and both were set up at exactly the same DL and DW.

One bow had 1" more BH over the other and you'd think this would be the more forgiving bow. I thought so as well. When I got to shooting both side by side, they both shot equally well; but, there was a subtle difference. The one with the higher BH would give me 'flyers' if I was not on my game (that's what I call it when I've got too many distractions).

I talked to others who had shot the same two bows and both agreed with my findings. The bow with the higher BH was NOT as forgiving; but it was very subtle. Then the acid test, since I'm a hunter first -- snap shooting. The results were astounding. One bow shot 1/2 the group of the other bow consistently.

The one with the higher BH was the looser. The one with the lower reflex was the winner. The bow with the higher BH also had 2 1/2" of reflex. The other bow had 1" less BH but had 1 1/4" of reflex.

So, in my world of hunting, where you can't count on having 'minutes' to set up, and where the target can move on you in an instant, I'll go with the lower reflex over the higher BH any day.

TFOX

I am surprised I forgot that Mathews did come out with a deflex riser this year but they retailed it about $1300.00.[]


I have to think that Hoyts Proelite foced them to make the Apex.It seems the change has made a difference for them.


Rack,although I agree on some points,even the best archers in the world are shooting deflex risers now.Simply put,they can be consistantly more accurate with them. Even the best bobble from time to time and the difference between an ASA 12 and an 8 is as little as the line on the target.4 points lost on the width of a line,every once in a while it helps if the bow is helping you.

Wrist slap is a big advantage of deflex risers also.Even the high brace reflexed bows are more likely to hit your arm than a deflex riser and for hunting that means less chance to hit your sleeve.


The only drawback I have found to deflex risers are they generally don't balance as well in the hand and therefore aiming is a little harder BUT knowig how to balance a bow with a stabilizer TOTALLY offsets this.Reflex almost seem to be balanced without a stabilizer and just bolting ANY stabilizer on the bow seems to be a perfect fit.


With the cam designs today speed isn't even an issue with a deflex,or atleast with my Protec it isnt.I am getting 284 fps @ 59# with a 300 grain arrow with a measly 28 1/2" draw.(if I decide to shoot an ASA event with it I will slow it down a bit)Not bad with an 8" brace and 1/2" deflex riser.Mine is only 38" a-a but for my build and the fact I have a huge nose,that gets the string angle about right.

TerryM

This has been an interesting post. I find it odd that a bow like the Protec gets virtually no comment around here compared to the Xtec or Vipertec. Even given the fact that it has a deflex riser and a 8 1/8 brace height. I would think it would be an extremely accurate and shootable bow with the same speed as an Xtec. Matter of fact with spiral cams it can be faster than the xtec. I would think the ability to put your shot exactly where you are aiming should trump a few extra fps no?

ewolf

That's why I shoot a protec. Look at what most of the top Hoyt shooters shot. It's generally the Protec/Proelite. They are about 50/50 on 2000 or 3000 limbs. I agree with Len that hunting is when you will have fits with an unforgiving bow. Shooting up and down will give people problems with a reflex bow as well. Let alone shooting straight down out of a treestand.

TerryM

Are you saying you no longer shoot the Protec? If this is the case what did you switch over to after your Protec? I am seriously thinking of putting a Protec ( spiral or not , not sure yet) on the short list for my next bow purchase. At first I thought of going for a fast bow like an allegiance now I'm not so sure.

JOE PA

Another interesting and thought provoking topic from Len.

While most of the talk these days seems to be focused on bows that shoot with very little or no recoil, are they really the bows that most people will shoot with the most accuracy and forgiveness? I've yet to shoot a highly reflexed bow that seemed forgiving to me, though others have proclaimed the same models to be very forgiving for them. I do shoot better with bows that have less reflex, but these are the same bows that others will complain about in terms of recoil. Maximum speed with low recoil seems to be the selling feature of most of the newer "hotter" bows on the market today.