If push came to shove
09-13-2002, 10:09 AM
#61
Nontypical Buck
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RE: If push came to shove
Which gets me back to where I was going with this whole thread. There are quality heads on both sides of the fence that will get the job done. IF they both penetrate equally, and IF (in normal conditions) they fly equally well, do you see any specific advantages or disadvantages of one head type over or under the other?
Example. I zip my steelforce tipped arrow through a deer and bury it into the ground. I repeat this performance with a steelhead tipped arrow. My bow is well tuned, and in normal conditions both get the job done equally well. Why should I choose one over the other, specifically. I'll refer you to my pro and con listing I posted earlier in this thread, these are the types of things I'd like to brainstorm, discuss and debate.
Example. I zip my steelforce tipped arrow through a deer and bury it into the ground. I repeat this performance with a steelhead tipped arrow. My bow is well tuned, and in normal conditions both get the job done equally well. Why should I choose one over the other, specifically. I'll refer you to my pro and con listing I posted earlier in this thread, these are the types of things I'd like to brainstorm, discuss and debate.
09-13-2002, 10:09 AM
#62
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
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RE: If push came to shove
Straightarrow, we are probably thinking the same using different words. What I meant was that I could have the most perfectly tuned bow, and still have problems throwing broadheads, because the arrow itself (not just spine), was not airodynamically (I'm looking for another word but can't find one) set up for optimum broadhead flight. For instance, moving from a non-helical to a helical, or putting an extra fletching on (like I did), having optimum FOC, etc.
09-13-2002, 10:51 AM
#63
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
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RE: If push came to shove
Pinwheel...I agree <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Like I said earlier....why take the chance...if you don't have to? And I agree that they are many times used as a band-aid for a setup that is not tuned well enough for fixed heads to fly straight.
If you have your bow tuned properly(as many here do), and have the KE, go for it. You'll probably be ok. But to me it's just not worth taking the chance(no matter how small).
Rangeball...in the scenario you describe...it really makes no difference. A double lung with a fixed or a mech is just that...a double lung.
What I look at is, not how both perform on a perfectly placed shot, but a poor shot. That's where the differnces(advantages/disadvantage) actually show up and make a difference. If I knew all my shots would be perfect, I could buy the cheapest head I could get...still wouldn't matter...dead animal.
Like I said earlier....why take the chance...if you don't have to? And I agree that they are many times used as a band-aid for a setup that is not tuned well enough for fixed heads to fly straight.
If you have your bow tuned properly(as many here do), and have the KE, go for it. You'll probably be ok. But to me it's just not worth taking the chance(no matter how small).
Rangeball...in the scenario you describe...it really makes no difference. A double lung with a fixed or a mech is just that...a double lung.
What I look at is, not how both perform on a perfectly placed shot, but a poor shot. That's where the differnces(advantages/disadvantage) actually show up and make a difference. If I knew all my shots would be perfect, I could buy the cheapest head I could get...still wouldn't matter...dead animal.
09-13-2002, 01:29 PM
#65
Nontypical Buck
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RE: If push came to shove
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
What I look at is, not how both perform on a perfectly placed shot, but a poor shot. That's where the differnces(advantages/disadvantage) actually show up and make a difference.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
WV and Pinwheel, in your mind, based on your experiences, what do you view as the SPECIFIC advantages or disadvantages of one over the other? There are enough generalizations in this thread. You say something COULD go wrong with a quality mechanical. Like what? I don't believe I've ever read or heard a single episode of a steelhead failing, for instance.
Which would be more forgiving in flight, after it's beyond our control, say when a stiff wind kicks up at the split second of release, the arrow glances off a twig, or heaven forbid the twig rips one of the fletchings off, etc.? Which one is more forgiving of shooting form errors and why?
What I look at is, not how both perform on a perfectly placed shot, but a poor shot. That's where the differnces(advantages/disadvantage) actually show up and make a difference.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
WV and Pinwheel, in your mind, based on your experiences, what do you view as the SPECIFIC advantages or disadvantages of one over the other? There are enough generalizations in this thread. You say something COULD go wrong with a quality mechanical. Like what? I don't believe I've ever read or heard a single episode of a steelhead failing, for instance.
Which would be more forgiving in flight, after it's beyond our control, say when a stiff wind kicks up at the split second of release, the arrow glances off a twig, or heaven forbid the twig rips one of the fletchings off, etc.? Which one is more forgiving of shooting form errors and why?
09-13-2002, 02:16 PM
#66
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: If push came to shove
I consistantly see the phrase "Why take the chance?" in several posts throughout this thread (not really picking on anyone in particular). It is intended to refer to mechanicals not opening properly I suppose but I would like to use it in a different context.
Why take the chance of having a fixed blade head go astray if your form isn't perfect or it is windy out? Why not just shoot an expandable and always know where your arrow is going?
Why take the chance of having a fixed blade head go astray if your form isn't perfect or it is windy out? Why not just shoot an expandable and always know where your arrow is going?
09-13-2002, 02:48 PM
#67
Giant Nontypical
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RE: If push came to shove
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Why take the chance of having a fixed blade head go astray if your form isn't perfect or it is windy out? Why not just shoot an expandable and always know where your arrow is going?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
It is a great question. And I will give you my personal answer. If your form isn't good, and you can't group well with fixed broadheads and a well tuned bow, I wouldn't suggest using them. But the same goes for expandables. If it windy out and you have found that your fixed blades do not group well, do not use them. Same goes for expandables. I found that with an old setup that I had about eight years back, that in the wind, my the Muzzy's would fly better than my Magnus. So, when it was windy out I used the Muzzy's. No tune was needed, bow was ytuned for both.
Now, like I said the other day, I was shooting my Magnus the other day in a sustained 25 mph wind and was grouping them 2" at 30 yards. So I know that my setup will be good to 30 yards in 25 mph wind because I practiced with them. If there is a sustained wind over 25 mph, I wouldn't be 15 feet up in a tree.
But I would agree that if someone does not have the good form and is not grouping well, then fixed blades may not be the best choice. But remember that with either chioce, if the form isn't correct, then the arrow will not fly optimal, and the arrow placement and impact will suffer. The faster the setup, the more magnified it may be.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
It is a great question. And I will give you my personal answer. If your form isn't good, and you can't group well with fixed broadheads and a well tuned bow, I wouldn't suggest using them. But the same goes for expandables. If it windy out and you have found that your fixed blades do not group well, do not use them. Same goes for expandables. I found that with an old setup that I had about eight years back, that in the wind, my the Muzzy's would fly better than my Magnus. So, when it was windy out I used the Muzzy's. No tune was needed, bow was ytuned for both.
Now, like I said the other day, I was shooting my Magnus the other day in a sustained 25 mph wind and was grouping them 2" at 30 yards. So I know that my setup will be good to 30 yards in 25 mph wind because I practiced with them. If there is a sustained wind over 25 mph, I wouldn't be 15 feet up in a tree.
But I would agree that if someone does not have the good form and is not grouping well, then fixed blades may not be the best choice. But remember that with either chioce, if the form isn't correct, then the arrow will not fly optimal, and the arrow placement and impact will suffer. The faster the setup, the more magnified it may be.
09-13-2002, 04:08 PM
#68
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: If push came to shove
I want to ask where the big revelation came from that mechanicals are the "cure-all" to poor form and tuning? This is utter nonsense IMO. A well tuned bow is a well tuned bow, regardless of whether it utilizes fixed or mechanical broadheads. A well tuned bow is no more affected by wind at hunting distances when utilizing fixed heads than it is when shooting mechanicals. The only variables that come into play here are whether or not an archer takes the time to properly tune their bow, and fixed-blade heads will show the archer that their equipment is not correctly tuned, whereas mechanicals "mask" this. That's it.
As stated above, mechanicals are not as strong on low percentage shots due to their moving parts. Single, double, and even triple blade failures are a much more common occurence in my testing with them, especially with angled, "glancing" shots that hit bone. I shot a 6 pt one year with a Spitfire that failed to penetrate and broke off two blades upon contact with bone. I recovered him after a long search, but was extremely lucky. Upon inspection the head only penetrated a few inches after the bone hit, and luckily took out an artery which was the only reason why I was able to recover him. I have had similar occurences using other mechanicals.
I have yet to have such an occurence with any of the many fixed-blade heads I've shot over the years, every shot has harvested each animal within a fair revory time and distance, even those few poor hits I've had with them.
That's it in a nutshell. Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 09/13/2002 17:17:22
As stated above, mechanicals are not as strong on low percentage shots due to their moving parts. Single, double, and even triple blade failures are a much more common occurence in my testing with them, especially with angled, "glancing" shots that hit bone. I shot a 6 pt one year with a Spitfire that failed to penetrate and broke off two blades upon contact with bone. I recovered him after a long search, but was extremely lucky. Upon inspection the head only penetrated a few inches after the bone hit, and luckily took out an artery which was the only reason why I was able to recover him. I have had similar occurences using other mechanicals.
I have yet to have such an occurence with any of the many fixed-blade heads I've shot over the years, every shot has harvested each animal within a fair revory time and distance, even those few poor hits I've had with them.
That's it in a nutshell. Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 09/13/2002 17:17:22
09-13-2002, 05:38 PM
#69
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: If push came to shove
I can say this much. The one shop I worked at was the first to carry Riley's broadheads. Riley lived in my area, and his buddy was a rep for a bow company that was on good terms with the owner of my shop.
I can assure you that Riley and his band of "hunters" were not having problems with solocam nocktravel....as we were selling about the same time Matt brought out his very first bow or even before.
The problems were twofold...crappy bow designs of the day (and Riley and his gang shot some of the crappiest you could find back then)..especially synthetic strings and cables that threw 2 cam bows out of synch if you happened to look at em funny....I won't comment on the latter, as my momma told me it's just not nice to talk about people in such a way..especially the deceased.
JeffB
I can assure you that Riley and his band of "hunters" were not having problems with solocam nocktravel....as we were selling about the same time Matt brought out his very first bow or even before.
The problems were twofold...crappy bow designs of the day (and Riley and his gang shot some of the crappiest you could find back then)..especially synthetic strings and cables that threw 2 cam bows out of synch if you happened to look at em funny....I won't comment on the latter, as my momma told me it's just not nice to talk about people in such a way..especially the deceased.
JeffB
09-13-2002, 05:54 PM
#70
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vernon Hills IL USA
Posts: 382
RE: If push came to shove
Right now it would have to be the rocky ti100. My reasons are that IMO it has the strongest ferrule out there, the blades are very strong and it is, out of a well tuned bow with a good helical fletch very nearly as accurate as a field point(for me anyway). I would have no reservations using it on any sized game and would not be concerend about it, should it encounter heavy bone. Also as I get older and can't pull as heavy a draw weight I don't need to be concerned about whether I have enough KE for a mechanical.
And that, from a mechanical(Snyper) user. ;-)
And that, from a mechanical(Snyper) user. ;-)