If push came to shove
09-12-2002, 10:04 AM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
RE: If push came to shove
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
And herein is where thearguments often start..simply because we are offering our own experiences..which do not coincide with others, and whammo..instant argument...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Jeff, very good point! No argument here.
Personally, my experience has been different. I have had tremendous success with both magnus and muzzy heads.
I guess that's why there are so many choices of both mech and fixed heads...and will always be.
Bottom line, tune your bow, have adequate KE, and shoot what you want and are confident in <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
And herein is where thearguments often start..simply because we are offering our own experiences..which do not coincide with others, and whammo..instant argument...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Jeff, very good point! No argument here.
Personally, my experience has been different. I have had tremendous success with both magnus and muzzy heads.
I guess that's why there are so many choices of both mech and fixed heads...and will always be.
Bottom line, tune your bow, have adequate KE, and shoot what you want and are confident in <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
09-12-2002, 10:12 AM
#42
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: If push came to shove
Rangeball, please reread my post from the first page. Like I said, the last time I actually used mechanicals were five years ago, I am not oblivious to the fact that there has been improved changes to mechanical, and I would never argue that mechanicals are no good or could not kill. If I thought they were useless, I would never have used them at all, non-the-less two consectutuve season. However, I had what I would call failure in the heads in that in both cases when I shot deer, the head broke. At the time I was using rocket heads(I wish I could remember the model)that had a chisel point. At the time, they were considered one of the premier mechanical heads. Now I have been told by a few experts that my KE off the bow I was using was actually too high for these heads. And for the life of me, I would never even consider dropping the poundage down on my bow to use these heads, especially since they are mechanicals. That is why I made my statement. Would you argue that any mechanical out there will be as strong or stronger then my fixed cut on contact heads?
Would you consider any mechanicals strong enough to use on other game larger deer? I recently found out that the heads that I am using are actually legal in Africa on Animals up to and including Rhinos. I don't know of any mechanical out there can state that. Now, I know that we are not talking about Rhino's here, but I'm just trying to make a point. I would have to change nothing in my setup to hunt any North American Species of Game with my current setup.
Lets talk about penetration, and also lets remember that I have my roots in and still shoot traditional. Lets also say that I am shooting heads (both mechanical and fixed) at about 190 FPS with 45 lbs of KE. Not would you argure that any mechanical will out-penetrate my cut on contact heads? So why would it outpenetrate arrows shooting 280 FPS ant 80 lbs of KE? remember that I said all else being equal which means that when I'm camparing the two heads, they are being shot with the same FPS and KE.
I don't remember 5-shot ever saying that any mechanical ever out penetrated a magnus two bladed head. All else being equal. If he did, I'd like to read. Then I would stand humble corrected.
As far as some of the mechanical designs out today, yes, some of them do interest me such as the Snyper. Maybe, someday, I will try them out. But not on my traditional bows.
But remember that the question was if push came to shove. Right?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If your shot placement is good...no doubt they will work fine. What if it's not so good...say dead center shoulder? Will it work? Always?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
WV, good point. I don't always like going there because people like to misread this kind of stuff by meaning that the cut-on-contact people use this as an excuse not to practice because they think they will go through anything. But, it is just the opposite. Things happen on live game, unforeseen things. Things like an unseen twig, or an aminal moving at the point of no return upon release. I have had both these instances. For instance, last year, I had a nice buck at 30 yards. He was just standing there eating and presented me with a nice broadside shot. Well, just before I released he turned toward me and down a small slope. Now instead of the nice broadside shot I had a quartering too me shot. Well to make a long story short the arrow busted through the blade, cliped both lungs, and passed though the deer. Now, would I have taken the shot with either head on a standing still shot - no of course not. But I didn't have the choice, and the head saved me.
Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 09/12/2002 11:20:40
Would you consider any mechanicals strong enough to use on other game larger deer? I recently found out that the heads that I am using are actually legal in Africa on Animals up to and including Rhinos. I don't know of any mechanical out there can state that. Now, I know that we are not talking about Rhino's here, but I'm just trying to make a point. I would have to change nothing in my setup to hunt any North American Species of Game with my current setup.
Lets talk about penetration, and also lets remember that I have my roots in and still shoot traditional. Lets also say that I am shooting heads (both mechanical and fixed) at about 190 FPS with 45 lbs of KE. Not would you argure that any mechanical will out-penetrate my cut on contact heads? So why would it outpenetrate arrows shooting 280 FPS ant 80 lbs of KE? remember that I said all else being equal which means that when I'm camparing the two heads, they are being shot with the same FPS and KE.
I don't remember 5-shot ever saying that any mechanical ever out penetrated a magnus two bladed head. All else being equal. If he did, I'd like to read. Then I would stand humble corrected.
As far as some of the mechanical designs out today, yes, some of them do interest me such as the Snyper. Maybe, someday, I will try them out. But not on my traditional bows.
But remember that the question was if push came to shove. Right?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> If your shot placement is good...no doubt they will work fine. What if it's not so good...say dead center shoulder? Will it work? Always?
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
WV, good point. I don't always like going there because people like to misread this kind of stuff by meaning that the cut-on-contact people use this as an excuse not to practice because they think they will go through anything. But, it is just the opposite. Things happen on live game, unforeseen things. Things like an unseen twig, or an aminal moving at the point of no return upon release. I have had both these instances. For instance, last year, I had a nice buck at 30 yards. He was just standing there eating and presented me with a nice broadside shot. Well, just before I released he turned toward me and down a small slope. Now instead of the nice broadside shot I had a quartering too me shot. Well to make a long story short the arrow busted through the blade, cliped both lungs, and passed though the deer. Now, would I have taken the shot with either head on a standing still shot - no of course not. But I didn't have the choice, and the head saved me.
Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 09/12/2002 11:20:40
09-12-2002, 10:44 AM
#43
Nontypical Buck
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Join Date: Feb 2003
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Posts: 2,994
RE: If push came to shove
BobCo, I hope you didn't take my post as not believing you, I was really hoping you would expand more on your personal experiences with both styles of heads. Thank you for doing so.
I hope 5shot chimes in on this, I don't know if he's ever compared the 2 blade magnus to say a steelhead. I also assume his tests are all done with the same bow and set up, but I don't know for sure. His input would be valuable here. Personally, I have never shot a Magnus or a steelhead, for that matter.
Trust me, I am on neither side of this issue, firmly on the fence, and trying to decide where best to put my foot down for me and my needs. I am very happy what you choose to use works well for you, and quite frankly my steelforce cut on contact heads have gone through any deer I've flung them at, but we can never control what happens in the real world. I'm simply trying to determine if of the premier heads in each type, if one offers more advantages and less disadvantages over the other to warrant consideration. Hopefully, Ben Franklin would be proud
As far as Rhino's and Elephants, I'm a deer and turkey hunter, and am focusing on them. I know I could kill a deer with and elephant gun, but why would I want to, if less than an elephant gun gets the job done equally as well with less chance things could go wrong.
I'm also curious, have you ever encountered some of the potential con's I listed for fixed heads, such as changing points of impact in stiff cross winds, etc.? I really want to know, as while I'd love to spend all day experimenting each scenario with each head type to draw my own conclusions, I sadly don't and won't have the time to do so, and must place trust in educated, experienced members of this forum.
I switched from mechanicals to Steelforce because the owner assured me I could simply screw them on my well tuned bow and they would shoot like my field tips. They did. However, the steelhead and meteorite have my interest fully piqued, and I'm simply trying to ascertain if I would be gaining anything while not giving anything up by switching to them.
I hope 5shot chimes in on this, I don't know if he's ever compared the 2 blade magnus to say a steelhead. I also assume his tests are all done with the same bow and set up, but I don't know for sure. His input would be valuable here. Personally, I have never shot a Magnus or a steelhead, for that matter.
Trust me, I am on neither side of this issue, firmly on the fence, and trying to decide where best to put my foot down for me and my needs. I am very happy what you choose to use works well for you, and quite frankly my steelforce cut on contact heads have gone through any deer I've flung them at, but we can never control what happens in the real world. I'm simply trying to determine if of the premier heads in each type, if one offers more advantages and less disadvantages over the other to warrant consideration. Hopefully, Ben Franklin would be proud
As far as Rhino's and Elephants, I'm a deer and turkey hunter, and am focusing on them. I know I could kill a deer with and elephant gun, but why would I want to, if less than an elephant gun gets the job done equally as well with less chance things could go wrong.
I'm also curious, have you ever encountered some of the potential con's I listed for fixed heads, such as changing points of impact in stiff cross winds, etc.? I really want to know, as while I'd love to spend all day experimenting each scenario with each head type to draw my own conclusions, I sadly don't and won't have the time to do so, and must place trust in educated, experienced members of this forum.
I switched from mechanicals to Steelforce because the owner assured me I could simply screw them on my well tuned bow and they would shoot like my field tips. They did. However, the steelhead and meteorite have my interest fully piqued, and I'm simply trying to ascertain if I would be gaining anything while not giving anything up by switching to them.
09-12-2002, 11:08 AM
#44
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
RE: If push came to shove
Bob...you know you and I are on the same page on this issue.
Rangeball
I can't give you any info on mech heads because I haven't used them because of the reasons in my earlier post.
As far as the Magnus 2 blades, I can give some imput. I've shot them exclusively for the last 6 years, and along with muzzy's a couple more...before I made the total switch.
I have killed deer out to 40yds with them, although I rarely shoot past 25, and usually under 20. I have never run into a problem with the wind(not saying it couldn't happen) but as most of my shot's have been under 20, it's never been a problem for me, even if it is windy.
Of the last 12 deer I've shot at with them, I've killed 11...and hit a limb with the other. I've had absolutley incredible perfomance. All but one was a pass through, and that one was at 40 yds, quartering away hard...entered the middle of the hind qtr, and exited the middle of the opposite shoulder blade(but the arrow didn't come all the way out...about 50%). That is IMO great penetration...and my setup only shoots around 240fps.
So like Jeff said earlier, each will have his own experiences...but for me, I haven't (yet) seen a con to shooting these heads. And one of the biggest pro's is that they are $20/6 and you just resharpen them , clean them off, and back in the quiver they go.
I just feel that if there is a chance of something that can go wrong, I have a better chance of it NOT happening, using these heads.
And btw...most of the deer I've shot with them have run less than 50yds....but that is a shot placement issue..which is really the key to success anyhow(not the type of head).
Rangeball
I can't give you any info on mech heads because I haven't used them because of the reasons in my earlier post.
As far as the Magnus 2 blades, I can give some imput. I've shot them exclusively for the last 6 years, and along with muzzy's a couple more...before I made the total switch.
I have killed deer out to 40yds with them, although I rarely shoot past 25, and usually under 20. I have never run into a problem with the wind(not saying it couldn't happen) but as most of my shot's have been under 20, it's never been a problem for me, even if it is windy.
Of the last 12 deer I've shot at with them, I've killed 11...and hit a limb with the other. I've had absolutley incredible perfomance. All but one was a pass through, and that one was at 40 yds, quartering away hard...entered the middle of the hind qtr, and exited the middle of the opposite shoulder blade(but the arrow didn't come all the way out...about 50%). That is IMO great penetration...and my setup only shoots around 240fps.
So like Jeff said earlier, each will have his own experiences...but for me, I haven't (yet) seen a con to shooting these heads. And one of the biggest pro's is that they are $20/6 and you just resharpen them , clean them off, and back in the quiver they go.
I just feel that if there is a chance of something that can go wrong, I have a better chance of it NOT happening, using these heads.
And btw...most of the deer I've shot with them have run less than 50yds....but that is a shot placement issue..which is really the key to success anyhow(not the type of head).
09-12-2002, 11:18 AM
#45
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Posts: 7,571
RE: If push came to shove
Rangeball, no I don't take your questioning as an attack on me, but thanks for asking. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Like I said in the last post, I didn't make the rhino explaination as if I planned on hunting them. And yes you can kill a deer with an elaphant gun, but try and eat it after you hit it. My point to that was that the extra penetration is there, just in case. Many people ask me about how much I need to bury the arrow in the dirt after going through the deer. I always to use as much KE I can arrucately shoot. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Yes, the hole may be the same for that perfect broadside shot with 45 lbs KE or 80 lbs KE, but with the 80, it is there if you need it, in case something goes wrong.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'm also curious, have you ever encountered some of the potential con's I listed for fixed heads, such as changing points of impact in stiff cross winds, etc.? I really want to know, as while I'd love to spend all day experimenting each scenario with each head type to draw my own conclusions, <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
In a nutshell, yes, I have encountered planning. But a lot will depend on what type of arrow you are using. For instance, with carbon arrows, I could not get my magnus to fly right because of planning even with no wind. One of the problems, is that I have a 33" draw, and I won't use an overdraw. The only fixed blade broadhead that I could use with my carbons with any type of accuracy was a Muzzy 75 grain, which went against the theory that you have to have a high FOC when using fixed blades and carbons. You will most definitely have to have the right arrow to shoot the two bladed cut on contact heads. The best shaft that works for me is a 78XX, 2613 cut to 33". I use a Stos (made by magnus) 145 grain two blade with a 42 grain adapter. My total arrow weight is 700 grains. I also shoot a Parker 70 pound 33" draw bow and get around 80 lbs KE with this setup. Another extremely important point is that I use FOUR 4.75" vanes helical vanes on my arrow. The added vane adds extra drag and stability. I also use a drop away rest. This setup is extremely stable even in high winds out to about 35 yards. Last night I was shooting 2" groups (actually I don't shoot groups, I have to actually shoot once and pull the arrow out) at 30 yards with a sustained 25 mph wind.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> All but one was a pass through, and that one was at 40 yds, quartering away hard...entered the middle of the hind qtr, and exited the middle of the opposite shoulder blade(but the arrow didn't come all the way out...about 50%).<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
WV, it is always difficult to move to something different or even try something different when you had a result like that. I think you know what I mean when I say that the penetration will be there if you need it. It's hard to buy into something like that until it happens.
Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 09/12/2002 12:23:38
Like I said in the last post, I didn't make the rhino explaination as if I planned on hunting them. And yes you can kill a deer with an elaphant gun, but try and eat it after you hit it. My point to that was that the extra penetration is there, just in case. Many people ask me about how much I need to bury the arrow in the dirt after going through the deer. I always to use as much KE I can arrucately shoot. I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Yes, the hole may be the same for that perfect broadside shot with 45 lbs KE or 80 lbs KE, but with the 80, it is there if you need it, in case something goes wrong.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'm also curious, have you ever encountered some of the potential con's I listed for fixed heads, such as changing points of impact in stiff cross winds, etc.? I really want to know, as while I'd love to spend all day experimenting each scenario with each head type to draw my own conclusions, <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
In a nutshell, yes, I have encountered planning. But a lot will depend on what type of arrow you are using. For instance, with carbon arrows, I could not get my magnus to fly right because of planning even with no wind. One of the problems, is that I have a 33" draw, and I won't use an overdraw. The only fixed blade broadhead that I could use with my carbons with any type of accuracy was a Muzzy 75 grain, which went against the theory that you have to have a high FOC when using fixed blades and carbons. You will most definitely have to have the right arrow to shoot the two bladed cut on contact heads. The best shaft that works for me is a 78XX, 2613 cut to 33". I use a Stos (made by magnus) 145 grain two blade with a 42 grain adapter. My total arrow weight is 700 grains. I also shoot a Parker 70 pound 33" draw bow and get around 80 lbs KE with this setup. Another extremely important point is that I use FOUR 4.75" vanes helical vanes on my arrow. The added vane adds extra drag and stability. I also use a drop away rest. This setup is extremely stable even in high winds out to about 35 yards. Last night I was shooting 2" groups (actually I don't shoot groups, I have to actually shoot once and pull the arrow out) at 30 yards with a sustained 25 mph wind.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> All but one was a pass through, and that one was at 40 yds, quartering away hard...entered the middle of the hind qtr, and exited the middle of the opposite shoulder blade(but the arrow didn't come all the way out...about 50%).<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
WV, it is always difficult to move to something different or even try something different when you had a result like that. I think you know what I mean when I say that the penetration will be there if you need it. It's hard to buy into something like that until it happens.
Edited by - BobCo19-65 on 09/12/2002 12:23:38
09-12-2002, 01:22 PM
#46
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
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Posts: 2,994
RE: If push came to shove
33" draw? Wow...
Thanks for your input. It was very helpful. In fact, your last post got me thinking in a whole other vein about arrow weight, ke, momentum and trajectory which led me to some heavy figuring and trajectory program playing around... I'll start another post on my findings.
Thanks for your input. It was very helpful. In fact, your last post got me thinking in a whole other vein about arrow weight, ke, momentum and trajectory which led me to some heavy figuring and trajectory program playing around... I'll start another post on my findings.
09-12-2002, 04:56 PM
#47
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: San Marcos TX USA
Posts: 187
RE: If push came to shove
I have used the game tracker silvetip mechs. the past two years. All my shots were broadside double lung and they have gone through whitetail like melted butter(7 deer, 4 pigs). Some people say these are "cheap" and they are but where I live there is nothing but rock so if you miss you can kiss your broadhead goodbye. They do make an awesome exit wound. For large game I use Muzzy 3 blade.
09-12-2002, 07:27 PM
#48
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: If push came to shove
Now wait a minute here!!!
This topic keeps changing.
Rangeball
You said , "again , if their flight and on game performance were the same , which would you choose , and why?"
So , I would conclude from that sentence , that the fear of a mech head being mechanical , thus more to go wrong , would be a non issue.
If both heads flew identical (even in high winds) , and both functioned flawlessly on game (no worries with mechs not opening or deflecting). I would think everyone would choose the mech , for the bigger wound , unless their both identical in that aspect , and if so , this thread becomes a non issue.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
"Nocked,cocked & ready to rock"
This topic keeps changing.
Rangeball
You said , "again , if their flight and on game performance were the same , which would you choose , and why?"
So , I would conclude from that sentence , that the fear of a mech head being mechanical , thus more to go wrong , would be a non issue.
If both heads flew identical (even in high winds) , and both functioned flawlessly on game (no worries with mechs not opening or deflecting). I would think everyone would choose the mech , for the bigger wound , unless their both identical in that aspect , and if so , this thread becomes a non issue.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
"Nocked,cocked & ready to rock"
09-12-2002, 09:59 PM
#49
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Niagara ND United States
Posts: 81
RE: If push came to shove
just a thought what about those partialy fixed and partialy mechanical heads what up with that<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
09-12-2002, 10:34 PM
#50
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: If push came to shove
If all else is equal, I'll take the mech head because even out of a well tuned bow that shoots a fixed head true (same as field points) the wind can/will play havok with you. Of course, you can help/cure this with larger fletching and more helical...I PREFER LESS fletching....but that's me.
I would go with mech heads, but don't think they are for everyone.
I have NO problems/worries about penetration, or toughness.
All in all, if you put them THROUGH the lungs...it's gonna die. GETTING them to the lungs (accuracy...even in the wind) is why I PREFER mechs to fixed...if I HAD to take one over the other.
Right now, I'm hunting VERY think woods....a 20 yard shot is a VERY long one, and there is rarely ANY wind that deep in these woods....shooting a fixed (Slick trick) for THESE conditions. Why? Cuase I haven't tried them yet, and the guys I hunt with are "mechaphobic" so to keep them at ease, I'll shoot a fixed.
When in Rome.............
I would go with mech heads, but don't think they are for everyone.
I have NO problems/worries about penetration, or toughness.
All in all, if you put them THROUGH the lungs...it's gonna die. GETTING them to the lungs (accuracy...even in the wind) is why I PREFER mechs to fixed...if I HAD to take one over the other.
Right now, I'm hunting VERY think woods....a 20 yard shot is a VERY long one, and there is rarely ANY wind that deep in these woods....shooting a fixed (Slick trick) for THESE conditions. Why? Cuase I haven't tried them yet, and the guys I hunt with are "mechaphobic" so to keep them at ease, I'll shoot a fixed.
When in Rome.............