If push came to shove
09-12-2002, 08:15 AM
#31
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: If push came to shove
I'm always amazed at the arguments this debate always causes...
Fact: Some people have great luck with mechanicals
Fact: Some people have poor luck with mechanicals
Fact: there are far too many variables to make 100% accurate judgements either way.
That being said...
I've shot T-heads, Muzzy, wasp CCL and SST, RM Ironheads, RM 90's, Sattelite mags, sattelite titans, Phantom, Bear Razorheads, Razorbacks,TriLoc, and I'm sure I've forgotten a few as far as fixed heads...
For mech's I've shot Pucketts, Punchcutter's, older rocket miniblaster's, Spitfires, Stilettos, jak-hammer's and Rocket steelheads...
I've taken game animals with most of them...not all but most...
If I had to choose one for the hunting I do, I'd go with the Steelheads. They penetrate as well as anyting else I've used, fly excellent with no fuss, leave scary bloodtrails,the blades tend to bend instead of break upon encontering bone,and they seem quite durable. A some have said, they are not the sharpest heads out there, but I've not seen where it makes a difference in the end result.
My 2 coppers..
JeffB
Fact: Some people have great luck with mechanicals
Fact: Some people have poor luck with mechanicals
Fact: there are far too many variables to make 100% accurate judgements either way.
That being said...
I've shot T-heads, Muzzy, wasp CCL and SST, RM Ironheads, RM 90's, Sattelite mags, sattelite titans, Phantom, Bear Razorheads, Razorbacks,TriLoc, and I'm sure I've forgotten a few as far as fixed heads...
For mech's I've shot Pucketts, Punchcutter's, older rocket miniblaster's, Spitfires, Stilettos, jak-hammer's and Rocket steelheads...
I've taken game animals with most of them...not all but most...
If I had to choose one for the hunting I do, I'd go with the Steelheads. They penetrate as well as anyting else I've used, fly excellent with no fuss, leave scary bloodtrails,the blades tend to bend instead of break upon encontering bone,and they seem quite durable. A some have said, they are not the sharpest heads out there, but I've not seen where it makes a difference in the end result.
My 2 coppers..
JeffB
09-12-2002, 08:19 AM
#32
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: If push came to shove
Indy, what I'm trying to get at,is IF you found a mechanical and a fixed blade that flew great and gave complete penetration, which would you choose and why. I was hoping to get past the performance issue, and brainstorm inherent characteristics of each head that may be a pro or con.
For example, as I can see it:
Mechanical PROS:
1- Mechanicals have less potential to be affected by wind.
2- Mechanicals have less potential to be affected by shooting form.
3- Mechanicals (some) do not expose the blade edge until it's time to cut tissue, which should keep them sharper in the long run.
4- Mechanicals have the potential to leave larger entrance and exit holes as well as a more circular wound channel (steelheads propoganda)
5- Mechanicals require less tuning to get them to fly properly at any given fps, making them more user friendly for an archer who doesn't have the time to spend, due to job, family, etc.
6- Mechanical blades are easily replaced.
7- Mechanicals take up less room in a quiver.
8- Can practice with field tips, then simply change heads, so no special broadhead target required.
Mechanical CONS:
1- Mechanicals are, mechanic.
2- Mechanicals have more potential to go wrong with them (o-rings, screws, etc)
3- This is where I'm struggling, I can't think of many more disadvantages.
Fixed PROS:
1- Very little to go wrong with them.
2- Blades easily resharpened with or without out replacement.
3- Cheaper.
Fixed CONS:
1- Potentially FPS sensative
2- Potentially shooting form sensative
3- Potentially wind sensative
4- Usually require more tuning efforts to achieve field point flight.
5- Reqire special targets to shoot into.
I am a bowhunter, have been for a number of years, and will most likely never be a target archer. I don't have a ton of time to practice and tune my stuff daily, but I know that I can go several months without touching my bow, and when I pick it up (providing it hasn't changed) can hit a 5" circle out to 35 yards everytime. I currently shoot Steelforce fixed heads, because I can just screw them and they fly like my field tips, and zip through deer. However, I'm wondering if a quality mechanical will do the same, perhaps I would be eliminating some variables and losing nothing by using them.
Compare the Muzzy and the steelhead. You usually hear or read nothing but glowing reports for either of these heads. Since they both fly and penetrate great, are their any specific advantages other than these two characteristics you can think of that would tip the odds in your favor? Right now, I'm leaning towards mechanicals, but who knows.
For example, as I can see it:
Mechanical PROS:
1- Mechanicals have less potential to be affected by wind.
2- Mechanicals have less potential to be affected by shooting form.
3- Mechanicals (some) do not expose the blade edge until it's time to cut tissue, which should keep them sharper in the long run.
4- Mechanicals have the potential to leave larger entrance and exit holes as well as a more circular wound channel (steelheads propoganda)
5- Mechanicals require less tuning to get them to fly properly at any given fps, making them more user friendly for an archer who doesn't have the time to spend, due to job, family, etc.
6- Mechanical blades are easily replaced.
7- Mechanicals take up less room in a quiver.
8- Can practice with field tips, then simply change heads, so no special broadhead target required.
Mechanical CONS:
1- Mechanicals are, mechanic.
2- Mechanicals have more potential to go wrong with them (o-rings, screws, etc)
3- This is where I'm struggling, I can't think of many more disadvantages.
Fixed PROS:
1- Very little to go wrong with them.
2- Blades easily resharpened with or without out replacement.
3- Cheaper.
Fixed CONS:
1- Potentially FPS sensative
2- Potentially shooting form sensative
3- Potentially wind sensative
4- Usually require more tuning efforts to achieve field point flight.
5- Reqire special targets to shoot into.
I am a bowhunter, have been for a number of years, and will most likely never be a target archer. I don't have a ton of time to practice and tune my stuff daily, but I know that I can go several months without touching my bow, and when I pick it up (providing it hasn't changed) can hit a 5" circle out to 35 yards everytime. I currently shoot Steelforce fixed heads, because I can just screw them and they fly like my field tips, and zip through deer. However, I'm wondering if a quality mechanical will do the same, perhaps I would be eliminating some variables and losing nothing by using them.
Compare the Muzzy and the steelhead. You usually hear or read nothing but glowing reports for either of these heads. Since they both fly and penetrate great, are their any specific advantages other than these two characteristics you can think of that would tip the odds in your favor? Right now, I'm leaning towards mechanicals, but who knows.
09-12-2002, 08:27 AM
#33
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Phoenixville, PA USA
Posts: 5,541
RE: If push came to shove
Jdoyle, I have changed my post since it obviously came off in a manner that made me seem as though I feel I am smarter than others on this board. I had the events of a year ago on my mind and it brought back a lot of anger that was misguided. I sincerely apologize to anyone I offended that politely called me on it. You, however, have not been polite and have even lowered yourself with your cute little BMA comment. I don't think that I am smarter than many of the people on this board, for if I did I would feel I had nothing to gain by being here and would not participate. I do know that I am smarter than you, which is illustrated by my not lowering myself to your level of immaturity. I will leave it at that and let your comments speak for your intelligence. Again, I truly am sorry to you others I did not mean to offend.
09-12-2002, 08:34 AM
#34
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Greenville SC USA
Posts: 656
RE: If push came to shove
Thank you for clearing that up Rangeball. Based on your last post, you don't need any advice. I see what you are looking for! Now, (with permission of HB of course), I would stick with a fixed head because:
1. I have a big backyard to practice in.
2. I have plenty of time to spend tuning.
3. When a fixed head flys 250+ fps and impacts the same as a field point, I'm confident of the tune.
4. Less gadgetry to go wrong.
5. Just my personal preference.
If the conditions changed like less time to tune and setup, I may go to MH's based on you hypothetical condition of equal performance.
1. I have a big backyard to practice in.
2. I have plenty of time to spend tuning.
3. When a fixed head flys 250+ fps and impacts the same as a field point, I'm confident of the tune.
4. Less gadgetry to go wrong.
5. Just my personal preference.
If the conditions changed like less time to tune and setup, I may go to MH's based on you hypothetical condition of equal performance.
09-12-2002, 08:43 AM
#35
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: If push came to shove
My preference is fixed bladed two bladed cut on contact:
Mechanicals:
1. Not strong enough
2. Do not cut on contact (most)
3. Cost too much - too expensive to practice with
4. Do not penetrate as well as cut on contact fixed blades - all else
being equal
Cut on contact fixed heads
1. Very strong
2. cut on contact
3. inexpensive as compared to mechanical (I pay $40 a dozen)
4. easily sharpened
5. penetrate extremely well
Mechanicals:
1. Not strong enough
2. Do not cut on contact (most)
3. Cost too much - too expensive to practice with
4. Do not penetrate as well as cut on contact fixed blades - all else
being equal
Cut on contact fixed heads
1. Very strong
2. cut on contact
3. inexpensive as compared to mechanical (I pay $40 a dozen)
4. easily sharpened
5. penetrate extremely well
09-12-2002, 09:14 AM
#36
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: If push came to shove
BobCo, on points 1&4 regarding mechanicals, have you had particular issue with a certain head or heads that cause you to state mechanicals are "not strong enough" and "don't penetrate as well, all things being equal"?
I currently use a fixed blade cut on impact head, and used to feel the same, that it HAD to penetrate the most based on it's design, but I've seen all kinds of posts (5shot et al) and articles (Bill Winke most recently, bowhunting world and other mags in the past) stating mechanicals such as the steelhead and snyper penetrate just as well, if not BETTER!
If you're feelings are based on personal experience, I'd love to hear more about it.
I currently use a fixed blade cut on impact head, and used to feel the same, that it HAD to penetrate the most based on it's design, but I've seen all kinds of posts (5shot et al) and articles (Bill Winke most recently, bowhunting world and other mags in the past) stating mechanicals such as the steelhead and snyper penetrate just as well, if not BETTER!
If you're feelings are based on personal experience, I'd love to hear more about it.
09-12-2002, 09:29 AM
#37
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
RE: If push came to shove
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
My preference is fixed bladed two bladed cut on contact:
Mechanicals:
1. Not strong enough
2. Do not cut on contact (most)
3. Cost too much - too expensive to practice with
4. Do not penetrate as well as cut on contact fixed blades - all else
being equal
Cut on contact fixed heads
1. Very strong
2. cut on contact
3. inexpensive as compared to mechanical (I pay $40 a dozen)
4. easily sharpened
5. penetrate extremely well
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Bob...I agree. I'll also add that I've always been able to get my bheads to fly with my fp's out to 40 and group well. So accuracy for me is not an issue.
IMO...a fixed blade cut on contact will out perform any other head. I agree that there are some good mechanical heads, and some get alot of praise. If your shot placement is good...no doubt they will work fine. What if it's not so good...say dead center shoulder? Will it work? Always?
Personally I know what I shoot will, and am not willing to take a chance that whatever mechanical head I would shoot might not work. Mechanicals have a percentage of failure, by design(even if on some of the good ones, it is very low). I'm not willing to take that chance.
my .02
My preference is fixed bladed two bladed cut on contact:
Mechanicals:
1. Not strong enough
2. Do not cut on contact (most)
3. Cost too much - too expensive to practice with
4. Do not penetrate as well as cut on contact fixed blades - all else
being equal
Cut on contact fixed heads
1. Very strong
2. cut on contact
3. inexpensive as compared to mechanical (I pay $40 a dozen)
4. easily sharpened
5. penetrate extremely well
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Bob...I agree. I'll also add that I've always been able to get my bheads to fly with my fp's out to 40 and group well. So accuracy for me is not an issue.
IMO...a fixed blade cut on contact will out perform any other head. I agree that there are some good mechanical heads, and some get alot of praise. If your shot placement is good...no doubt they will work fine. What if it's not so good...say dead center shoulder? Will it work? Always?
Personally I know what I shoot will, and am not willing to take a chance that whatever mechanical head I would shoot might not work. Mechanicals have a percentage of failure, by design(even if on some of the good ones, it is very low). I'm not willing to take that chance.
my .02
09-12-2002, 09:42 AM
#38
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: If push came to shove
I don't want to start another heated argument nor do I want to go too far off the intended subject but I did want to point out something...
In the post by WV he asks the question that if you hit a shoulderbalde square would you want to be shooting a mech vs.a CoC fixed blade...
And herein is where thearguments often start..simply because we are offering our own experiences..which do not coincide with others, and whammo..instant argument...
So as an example..I'd like to answer WV's question from my own experience...
In this case I'd totally disagree with WV, since I've had cut to the tips break and/or curl on heavy shoulder hits like he mentioned...shooting both traditional and modern equipment I might add..I've also had mech's blow right through a shoulder, as well as otehr fixed heads like Muzzy and Wasp..
The thing we have to remember here is simply (As I said in my first post) that there are too many variables involved in the handful of seconds as an animal is shot that we cannot document or see..we will never have a 100% accurate judgement...I think we all need to keep this is mind when discussing this issue..there are very few cut and dry issues in archery..there are always exceptions and areas where a "best guess" is all we have to go on.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled program...
WHHEEEELLLL
OOOOFFFFF
FFFOOORRRTTTTTUUUNNNEEEEE!!!
JeffB
In the post by WV he asks the question that if you hit a shoulderbalde square would you want to be shooting a mech vs.a CoC fixed blade...
And herein is where thearguments often start..simply because we are offering our own experiences..which do not coincide with others, and whammo..instant argument...
So as an example..I'd like to answer WV's question from my own experience...
In this case I'd totally disagree with WV, since I've had cut to the tips break and/or curl on heavy shoulder hits like he mentioned...shooting both traditional and modern equipment I might add..I've also had mech's blow right through a shoulder, as well as otehr fixed heads like Muzzy and Wasp..
The thing we have to remember here is simply (As I said in my first post) that there are too many variables involved in the handful of seconds as an animal is shot that we cannot document or see..we will never have a 100% accurate judgement...I think we all need to keep this is mind when discussing this issue..there are very few cut and dry issues in archery..there are always exceptions and areas where a "best guess" is all we have to go on.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled program...
WHHEEEELLLL
OOOOFFFFF
FFFOOORRRTTTTTUUUNNNEEEEE!!!
JeffB
09-12-2002, 10:01 AM
#39
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hilliard OH USA
Posts: 328
RE: If push came to shove
But Jeffb,
Unless you changed you name, you DON't look like Vanna <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Greg
"Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus."
Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!
Unless you changed you name, you DON't look like Vanna <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Greg
"Getting close to the game is the joy of Bowhunting for me, the harvest is a bonus."
Live 15 ft Python after eating a small Antelope!
09-12-2002, 10:02 AM
#40
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: If push came to shove
I agree. We all have horror stories. Here's mine- One of my first shots at a buck early in my career was with a fixed blade, out of a 70# bow on an aluminum arrow, and it BOUNCED BACKWARD after hitting him at 20 yards. About 3/4" of penetration, and the tip was screwed.
I shot a right at 300# buck with a wasp jackhammer out of a newer bow a few years back, spined him, and it went 3/4 through the thick part of the spine above the shoulders and dropped him like a stone. I still have the bone with the head imbedded in my freezer, I'm gonna make a paperweight out of it someday
I shot a right at 300# buck with a wasp jackhammer out of a newer bow a few years back, spined him, and it went 3/4 through the thick part of the spine above the shoulders and dropped him like a stone. I still have the bone with the head imbedded in my freezer, I'm gonna make a paperweight out of it someday