Help with speed
02-21-2005, 04:40 PM
#11
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 225
RE: Help with speed
Thanks a lot BGfisher for your opinions and knowledge. I am new to shooting tha tis why I have the kisser but you make a good point. After a little while I will take you advice and take it off. I heard that feathers shoot faster but I was told not to use feathers with a wisker busquit. Is that true? Good point baout the cammo arrows, the deer should notice... I do like the WB for a rest but an archery shop in my area is really trying to get me to scratch that one too. So, I will be changing arrows for sure. I have extra limb savers on the bow with a stabalizer so I am covered there. Thanks a lot it is really appreciated for a new shooter.
02-21-2005, 10:07 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Middletown PA United States
Posts: 3,625
RE: Help with speed
Ah So, welcome!!!! Being as you are new to the sport I would also suggest you don't get caught up too heavily with the speed craze. You can change the arrows if you like, but keep the WB rest for a while. In many cases simple is better. Just get to shootin that thing. If possible get you a decent coach from the ranks of target shooters. Join a local club or whatever that has indoor shooting going on. Target---not animals. I know I'll ruffle some feathers here, but target shooters make better coaches and generally know more about shooting. That's because they are into the accuracy thing and not Kinetic Energy freaks.
Learn how to achieve decent repeatable shooting form that feels comfy for you. Shoot FORM, one shot at a time. Often when I practice indoors I shoot only one arrow, then go retrieve it. That helps two ways. FGirst I'm not thinking about shooting tight groups. I'm only thinking of how to shoot that one arrow properly. Secondly, it gives me time to reflect on what I did right, and/or how to improve the next shot. Another reason not to shoot groups is that once you get good enough it gets expensive robinhooding or otherwise breaking the nock end of your arrows up. I ruined two just yesterday.
Learn how to achieve decent repeatable shooting form that feels comfy for you. Shoot FORM, one shot at a time. Often when I practice indoors I shoot only one arrow, then go retrieve it. That helps two ways. FGirst I'm not thinking about shooting tight groups. I'm only thinking of how to shoot that one arrow properly. Secondly, it gives me time to reflect on what I did right, and/or how to improve the next shot. Another reason not to shoot groups is that once you get good enough it gets expensive robinhooding or otherwise breaking the nock end of your arrows up. I ruined two just yesterday.
02-22-2005, 01:06 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Crosby TX USA
Posts: 2,599
RE: Help with speed
BGfisher, Great advice for the newbie. Kudos’ to you for typing such a lengthy response.
Realmfg, do what he suggests and your fps will increase. The Phoenix 34 is a parallel limb design bow, so I doubt it will get much louder with the lighter arrows. The speed gains should outweigh the any noise increase.
Realmfg, do what he suggests and your fps will increase. The Phoenix 34 is a parallel limb design bow, so I doubt it will get much louder with the lighter arrows. The speed gains should outweigh the any noise increase.
02-22-2005, 02:32 AM
#14
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,679
RE: Help with speed
He should still be getting faster than 215 with his set up. He should be close to 245 fps even with his arrows and string "stuff". This bow is capable of getting much better speed than what he is getting. He is only generating about 49 foot pounds of energy. He should be closer to 60.
The AMO rating on this bow is 235 fps with a 540 grain arrow at 60 pounds. Granted this is at 30 inch draw but something is definetly not right here. He is at 64 pounds and only shooting aproximately a 470 grain arrow. So he has more weight being drawn and a much lighter arrow and is getting 215.
If his limb bolts are tightened down all the way and he is only getting 64 pounds of draw weight then something is not right. The limbs are not working like they are suppose to. I suspect that either your cable is way too long or your string is way too short to get such a decrease in poundage. This also throws the rotation of the cam off and it will not perform at its optimum efficiency.
470 grain arrow ------ about a .28 fps decrease per grain of arrow weight. This equals a 33 fps loss so we are down to 277 fps.
28 inch draw ------ you loose about 20 fps so we are at 257 fps
Now the string stuff ------ about a 17 fps loss there and you should end up with a speed of about 240+- fps.
Check your strings and cables and make sure they are the correct length. Check your limbs for damage, you may have bad limbs or the wrong limbs to begin with.
The AMO rating on this bow is 235 fps with a 540 grain arrow at 60 pounds. Granted this is at 30 inch draw but something is definetly not right here. He is at 64 pounds and only shooting aproximately a 470 grain arrow. So he has more weight being drawn and a much lighter arrow and is getting 215.
If his limb bolts are tightened down all the way and he is only getting 64 pounds of draw weight then something is not right. The limbs are not working like they are suppose to. I suspect that either your cable is way too long or your string is way too short to get such a decrease in poundage. This also throws the rotation of the cam off and it will not perform at its optimum efficiency.
470 grain arrow ------ about a .28 fps decrease per grain of arrow weight. This equals a 33 fps loss so we are down to 277 fps.
28 inch draw ------ you loose about 20 fps so we are at 257 fps
Now the string stuff ------ about a 17 fps loss there and you should end up with a speed of about 240+- fps.
Check your strings and cables and make sure they are the correct length. Check your limbs for damage, you may have bad limbs or the wrong limbs to begin with.
02-22-2005, 02:59 AM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Crosby TX USA
Posts: 2,599
RE: Help with speed
I was thinking along the same lines about the draw weight, but then reread where he said
"It looks like the screws for the poundage is about at thier max but it should have 6 more lbs. " I know a little goes a long way with limb bolts so I figured he was just backed off that much (down to 64Lbs.)
But if he is at or near maxed out , then something is definately wrong with his rig.
"It looks like the screws for the poundage is about at thier max but it should have 6 more lbs. " I know a little goes a long way with limb bolts so I figured he was just backed off that much (down to 64Lbs.)
But if he is at or near maxed out , then something is definately wrong with his rig.
02-22-2005, 09:39 AM
#17
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Middletown PA United States
Posts: 3,625
RE: Help with speed
Dave, thanks for the "KUDO".
I'd like to keep this going a little without trying to step on anybodies toes too hard. Kinda like I'll put in my opinion and maybe learn from some responses.
OK, the lad's bow is at 64#. If that's where he wants to shoot it it shouldn't matter a whole lot whether his limb bolts are bottomed or not. In fact it might even be a better situation than backing them out if the bow maxed at 70#---right or wrong? Also, this cam rotation thing. I know that cams perform better at certain rotational positions, but most bows have to be adjusted for drawlength within a short range to achieve the optimum draw for a person, usually by twisting the string or cable a bit. I think that proper drawlength is a much more important consideration than optimum cam position. Those of us that have been around know that if the draw is not "pretty close" the the person behind it will never shoot as accurately as the could, no matter how fast the bow is.
I figured his arrow, from Bojackson.com, to be at 485gr. That is by no means conducive to getting speed. To get the most he would have to drop down to 320gr by today's accepted standards. Or if you accept the figures from an AMO Minimum Arrow Weight Chart it is even somewhat less for his drawlength at 64#. But in the world of reality we seek to have some sort of balance between speed and noise/vibration.
Two other things I'd like to touch base on. Factory specs: Everyone thinks that a bow should be set to factory specs when making adjustments or replacing strings/cable. Factory specs are not an absolute. They are approximate figures based on variables. What a person should do when they get a bow is, if they know what to do, take the necessary measurements, such as ATA, brace height, tiller, weight (maxed out), etc and record them. Compare them with factory ans they should be close, but not necessarily right on.
Then once a bow is shot in and tuned to perfection then take those measurements again, and record them. And in the future, should you change rigging then this should be your benchmark.
Secondly, I know bigbulls means well, but see what I said above about Kinetic Energy? At this point it's shouldn't even be an issue. The lad doesn't know enough to worry about it, nor should he. If he is going to be hunting deer-sized game then it really doesn't matter anyway. Any arrow that is spined correctly for his weight and draw will have more than enough for any deer. All I'm saying is that at this point in his shooting career it's not something to be concerned about. It clutters up the brain.
I can see that you hunt elk, right? Then some more is better, no doubt. But if deer is the quarry then 49lbs/ft is plenty with a well placed shot. In fact, that is the goal regardless of the energy. A good flying arrow and well placed.
I have shot many deer in the past with setups that produced less than 40lbs/ft and gotten mostly all passthroughs with 4" to 10" in the ground. The one that didn't broke the offside shoulder bone and destroyed the broadhead. Here again, well placed shots (and picky, too).
Like a said, and hope you don't take offense, but I think it's just better to keep thing simple for now. He's got a lot of time to learn about all the details of hunting later. For now I think it's better to get him shooting and learning to shoot correctly.
Barry
I'd like to keep this going a little without trying to step on anybodies toes too hard. Kinda like I'll put in my opinion and maybe learn from some responses.
OK, the lad's bow is at 64#. If that's where he wants to shoot it it shouldn't matter a whole lot whether his limb bolts are bottomed or not. In fact it might even be a better situation than backing them out if the bow maxed at 70#---right or wrong? Also, this cam rotation thing. I know that cams perform better at certain rotational positions, but most bows have to be adjusted for drawlength within a short range to achieve the optimum draw for a person, usually by twisting the string or cable a bit. I think that proper drawlength is a much more important consideration than optimum cam position. Those of us that have been around know that if the draw is not "pretty close" the the person behind it will never shoot as accurately as the could, no matter how fast the bow is.
I figured his arrow, from Bojackson.com, to be at 485gr. That is by no means conducive to getting speed. To get the most he would have to drop down to 320gr by today's accepted standards. Or if you accept the figures from an AMO Minimum Arrow Weight Chart it is even somewhat less for his drawlength at 64#. But in the world of reality we seek to have some sort of balance between speed and noise/vibration.
Two other things I'd like to touch base on. Factory specs: Everyone thinks that a bow should be set to factory specs when making adjustments or replacing strings/cable. Factory specs are not an absolute. They are approximate figures based on variables. What a person should do when they get a bow is, if they know what to do, take the necessary measurements, such as ATA, brace height, tiller, weight (maxed out), etc and record them. Compare them with factory ans they should be close, but not necessarily right on.
Then once a bow is shot in and tuned to perfection then take those measurements again, and record them. And in the future, should you change rigging then this should be your benchmark.
Secondly, I know bigbulls means well, but see what I said above about Kinetic Energy? At this point it's shouldn't even be an issue. The lad doesn't know enough to worry about it, nor should he. If he is going to be hunting deer-sized game then it really doesn't matter anyway. Any arrow that is spined correctly for his weight and draw will have more than enough for any deer. All I'm saying is that at this point in his shooting career it's not something to be concerned about. It clutters up the brain.
I can see that you hunt elk, right? Then some more is better, no doubt. But if deer is the quarry then 49lbs/ft is plenty with a well placed shot. In fact, that is the goal regardless of the energy. A good flying arrow and well placed.
I have shot many deer in the past with setups that produced less than 40lbs/ft and gotten mostly all passthroughs with 4" to 10" in the ground. The one that didn't broke the offside shoulder bone and destroyed the broadhead. Here again, well placed shots (and picky, too).
Like a said, and hope you don't take offense, but I think it's just better to keep thing simple for now. He's got a lot of time to learn about all the details of hunting later. For now I think it's better to get him shooting and learning to shoot correctly.
Barry
02-22-2005, 11:00 AM
#19
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 225
RE: Help with speed
Man, I canot say how much i appreciate the advice from you guys. It is like having an older brother looking out for you on this forum. Bgfisher thanks so much for your time helping me out. I am going to go with the lighter arrow like you said for sure. I will take it to a local pro shop and try to get this all figured out. Some of this stuff is like reading foreign language but I am sure I will learn soon enough!