How important is shaft straightness for hunting??
02-15-2005, 02:40 PM
#11
Site Bouncer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,099
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
I'm glad to see this got some attention. Gibblet, That was anything but sly.
Len, I never said money won't buy a better product, and I never said the .006 arrows were better than the .001, quite the oppisite. WHAT I did say is that not you nor anyone else on this board can convince me that anybody can tell the difference. I'm sure there are some who can but I'm willing to bet 99% of the people on this board can't. AND the original question was regarding a hunting application not target or 3D.
So your telling me that you recommend the more expensive .001 arrows to your customers who will be only hunting? Remind me never to shop at your store. Are you implying you would sell a product to a customer that he/she didn't need just because it was a better product? Do you realy think an average hunter can tell the difference in the way the two arrows fly? Or do you just want to make as much money as possible and to hell with what is best or most beneficial to the customer. If you think all that counts is the sale then definitely go that route, it may also be befitting.
I didn't advise Long Round Tip to buy the cheapest arrows he could find, he was asking about Gold tips and if he should get the .001 or .006 for hunting. You would tell him to get the .001's? why? If he is like me, he is an average archer with good enough skills to make a clean kill out to 40 +/- yds and hit targets at an even greater distance with consistancy. I doubt if he would ever be able to tell the difference between the two arrows all else being the same, and I'm quite sure that I will never either. (sorry for putting words in your mouth LRT)
Like I said his extra money like mine would be better spent at the range. And in this case, that's what should be advised.
Len, I never said money won't buy a better product, and I never said the .006 arrows were better than the .001, quite the oppisite. WHAT I did say is that not you nor anyone else on this board can convince me that anybody can tell the difference. I'm sure there are some who can but I'm willing to bet 99% of the people on this board can't. AND the original question was regarding a hunting application not target or 3D.
So your telling me that you recommend the more expensive .001 arrows to your customers who will be only hunting? Remind me never to shop at your store. Are you implying you would sell a product to a customer that he/she didn't need just because it was a better product? Do you realy think an average hunter can tell the difference in the way the two arrows fly? Or do you just want to make as much money as possible and to hell with what is best or most beneficial to the customer. If you think all that counts is the sale then definitely go that route, it may also be befitting.
I didn't advise Long Round Tip to buy the cheapest arrows he could find, he was asking about Gold tips and if he should get the .001 or .006 for hunting. You would tell him to get the .001's? why? If he is like me, he is an average archer with good enough skills to make a clean kill out to 40 +/- yds and hit targets at an even greater distance with consistancy. I doubt if he would ever be able to tell the difference between the two arrows all else being the same, and I'm quite sure that I will never either. (sorry for putting words in your mouth LRT)
Like I said his extra money like mine would be better spent at the range. And in this case, that's what should be advised.
02-15-2005, 06:35 PM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Middletown PA United States
Posts: 3,625
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
BigJ, pick on Lenny if you want but he has some valid points. How will a person ever find out what their accuracy potential is if they don't buy equipment capable of better than they are getting? Not saying that arrows of .001" are necessary, but it sure doesn't hurt to go middle of the road and get something about .003". And they're usually middle of the road in price, too.
Persoanlly I find arrows of .003 about optimum. That's why, although I try a lot of different ones as improvements hit the market, I often find myself drifting back to my ACC's. .003", .005" in spine variance---quality. And they aren't all that expensive compared to top quality AC arrows. I bought a dozen 10 years ago and still have 8 of them.
And the old adage about losing a lot of arrows shouldn't be a problem either. Move closer and/or learn to shoot better. I don't mind breaking one when shooting a deer though. It's probably the cheapest part of the hunt. And besides, somebody will make a new and better arrow next summer that I'll just have to try.
Persoanlly I find arrows of .003 about optimum. That's why, although I try a lot of different ones as improvements hit the market, I often find myself drifting back to my ACC's. .003", .005" in spine variance---quality. And they aren't all that expensive compared to top quality AC arrows. I bought a dozen 10 years ago and still have 8 of them.
And the old adage about losing a lot of arrows shouldn't be a problem either. Move closer and/or learn to shoot better. I don't mind breaking one when shooting a deer though. It's probably the cheapest part of the hunt. And besides, somebody will make a new and better arrow next summer that I'll just have to try.
02-15-2005, 08:31 PM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
Gibblet:
I see that I got the attention of you and others.
I was told by several arrow manufacturers that, in order to get 'better' arrows, my customers would have to spend more money. I do agree with that statement, but have found many exceptions to it. Just recently I bought many '5 packs' and '6 packs' (that's 5 or 6 dozen bulk packaged) of arrows that were supposed to be .001 (the best they had to offer)). What we received from one manufacturer was far from .001. Half of the 'lot' was more like .010-.015. Guess what - the Rep will be in the store tomorrow and I expect a recall ticket.
Now, if the .001s are that bad, what do you and others think you get when you buy the bargain basement brand. I'll answer that question, you don't know! We do quality control inspections as a service to our customers, and most of them know it and appreciate it. I've seen, by our standards, as much as a 100% rejection rate on some arrows.
We used to spend a lot of time trying to tune with BAD arrows. It was a waste of our time and the customers' money. We now examine every arrow that is supplied by a customer for tuning purposes and select only good arrows for that purpose. If we try to tune to a BAD arrow, then every other arrow has to be just as BAD to get uniform results. Think about that.
As you stated, you're breaking a lot of arrows. If that's the case, I could speculate that you may be tuned to a BAD arrow. Most of our customers have the same arrows for years and reflect them periodically.
We work very closely with all of our customers to weed out those BAD arrows. For instance, there are at least 4 spin tools available for customer use in the shop. If they wind up with a 100% rejection rate, did they get a good deal? While this scenario may be rare, it has happened; and, the arrows were always bought from a discount house of various sorts.
We sell arrows from very inexpensive to the expensive. What we sell to our customers is what meets their budget. The difference, however, is that our customers can expect a decent 'yield' from even our least expensive arrows.
And to finish, while spine is a very important issue, wall consistency and true (not advertised) straightness, IMPO, are sometimes more important.
I see that I got the attention of you and others.
I was told by several arrow manufacturers that, in order to get 'better' arrows, my customers would have to spend more money. I do agree with that statement, but have found many exceptions to it. Just recently I bought many '5 packs' and '6 packs' (that's 5 or 6 dozen bulk packaged) of arrows that were supposed to be .001 (the best they had to offer)). What we received from one manufacturer was far from .001. Half of the 'lot' was more like .010-.015. Guess what - the Rep will be in the store tomorrow and I expect a recall ticket.
Now, if the .001s are that bad, what do you and others think you get when you buy the bargain basement brand. I'll answer that question, you don't know! We do quality control inspections as a service to our customers, and most of them know it and appreciate it. I've seen, by our standards, as much as a 100% rejection rate on some arrows.
We used to spend a lot of time trying to tune with BAD arrows. It was a waste of our time and the customers' money. We now examine every arrow that is supplied by a customer for tuning purposes and select only good arrows for that purpose. If we try to tune to a BAD arrow, then every other arrow has to be just as BAD to get uniform results. Think about that.
As you stated, you're breaking a lot of arrows. If that's the case, I could speculate that you may be tuned to a BAD arrow. Most of our customers have the same arrows for years and reflect them periodically.
We work very closely with all of our customers to weed out those BAD arrows. For instance, there are at least 4 spin tools available for customer use in the shop. If they wind up with a 100% rejection rate, did they get a good deal? While this scenario may be rare, it has happened; and, the arrows were always bought from a discount house of various sorts.
We sell arrows from very inexpensive to the expensive. What we sell to our customers is what meets their budget. The difference, however, is that our customers can expect a decent 'yield' from even our least expensive arrows.
And to finish, while spine is a very important issue, wall consistency and true (not advertised) straightness, IMPO, are sometimes more important.
02-15-2005, 09:16 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,072
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
I have a question as I have been reading this post for a while and haven't responded. My question is why would you want pin point accuracy on the 3-D course and not in hunting. I know(from shooting many 3-D tournaments) that a fraction of an inch can keep you out of the money, But with the stress situations that bowhunting can give us, wouldn't you want a larger margin of error with a better arrow. Also I would like to add that with the speed of todays bows, tuning becomes more critical, spine inconsistancies would make planing issues even more previlent. When it comes to both my tournaments and hunting I want the best that money can buy. Even if .006 is good enough for me to kill an elk, shooting an arrow with a .001 will give me more confidence in my equipment, especially when accurate bowshooting is a highly mental game.
02-15-2005, 10:11 PM
#16
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
Elkcrazy8
I have a question as I have been reading this post for a while and haven't responded. My question is why would you want pin point accuracy on the 3-D course and not in hunting.
I have a question as I have been reading this post for a while and haven't responded. My question is why would you want pin point accuracy on the 3-D course and not in hunting.
Many of you don't know that I'm a hunter and NOT a tournament archer of any kind. Even so, I believe in putting out the best for the hunt. Call it ethics or whatever you want, but I call it principle.
A 'tip of the hat' to you, Elkcrazy8.
02-15-2005, 10:35 PM
#17
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central Louisiana
Posts: 144
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
Len, I have a question for you. In your shop, how do you handle a situation where a customer buys a dozen arrows from you (regardless of price and advertised quality range) and takes them home and tests them for straightness and weight tolerance. He then finds that 4 out of the dozen do not meet advertised tolerances. Do you replace the bad arrows?
02-15-2005, 10:56 PM
#18
Site Bouncer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,099
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
I think alot of people are missing my point. I responded to a question about the difference in a .001 to .006 arrow for hunting purposes. My statement was and still is. I don't think 99% of the people on this board could tell the difference between the two arrows.
I didn't say "Hey be carefull because those .006 arrows may not be .006 they may be .011 or .015". You can have a bad batch of arrows no matter what straightness you order. And just like the .001's you should EXPECT your .006's to be .006! I wonder how many of you who buy .001's are now wondering if indeed they are .001's huh?
And yes I do agree that both 3D and hunting is a matter of fractions of inches and stress is high in both, but that just reinforces my point. More time should be put into practice instead of if your arrows are .003-5 off straight. Those super straight arrows will not make you a better hunter, practice and ONLY practice will. Again before somebody goes off the deep end I am comparing a true .001 to a .006 in a HUNTING situation.
I would put arrow straightness (difference between .001 and .006) the last thing on my list of things to worry about when trying to be a better archer. Stop and think about all the different things that can alter your shot from going where you want it. From your form to your bows state of tune. There is so much more to worry and work on instead of the difference between .001 and .006
If you practice enough you will have the confidence and the ability to put your arrow in the vitals of the animal you are hunting and make a clean and ethical kill. And it would not make a difference nor could you tell the difference if your arrows were .001 or .006.
Isn't that what the question was "How important is shaft straightness for hunting"
I didn't say "Hey be carefull because those .006 arrows may not be .006 they may be .011 or .015". You can have a bad batch of arrows no matter what straightness you order. And just like the .001's you should EXPECT your .006's to be .006! I wonder how many of you who buy .001's are now wondering if indeed they are .001's huh?
And yes I do agree that both 3D and hunting is a matter of fractions of inches and stress is high in both, but that just reinforces my point. More time should be put into practice instead of if your arrows are .003-5 off straight. Those super straight arrows will not make you a better hunter, practice and ONLY practice will. Again before somebody goes off the deep end I am comparing a true .001 to a .006 in a HUNTING situation.
I would put arrow straightness (difference between .001 and .006) the last thing on my list of things to worry about when trying to be a better archer. Stop and think about all the different things that can alter your shot from going where you want it. From your form to your bows state of tune. There is so much more to worry and work on instead of the difference between .001 and .006
If you practice enough you will have the confidence and the ability to put your arrow in the vitals of the animal you are hunting and make a clean and ethical kill. And it would not make a difference nor could you tell the difference if your arrows were .001 or .006.
Isn't that what the question was "How important is shaft straightness for hunting"
02-15-2005, 10:59 PM
#19
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
Do you replace the bad arrows?
Second, if I returned the volume of arrows that you're proposing, my shop would be 'blacklisted' by the manufacturers and distributors. In other words, they wouldn't sell me any more arrows.
The best way to handle this situation is for the consumer to return the arrows to the manufacturer. They can't 'blacklist' you and they might be influenced by a large portion of their market making returns.
As far as "advertised tolerances", .......[:@][&o][:'(]
We advise the customers as to what yield they can expect from various brands/styles. If they want, we help them select the better arrows for hunting and they use the rest for target practice.
02-15-2005, 11:04 PM
#20
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 833
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
It is real funny. Just last week 4 friends and I hade the same thing come up.
1st guy shoots 3-d select .001
2nd guy shoots same 3-d
3rd guy shoots easton car. excel .005
4th guy shoots wallmart gamegetter ll not sure but shuld be bad :}
I shoot beman ics camo hunter .002
We all shoot difrant rounds using all the aroows.All bows are 65-70# draw 29 in the wallmart arows where 30 in.We all shot from 20yd 40yd and 60yd.Knowing the what arrow you where shooting you would think that the $100 arows would be way better than the lesser arrows.Well I sure ate my words as I was handing my $100 to jim [the wallmart guy] Non of us could tell any difrants in the arows for acracy. Of corse they all grouped in dif spots but groups stayed tight depending on what shooter shot them.
I am one for buying very good items to hunt with.I normaly loose or break 4 dz arrows a year. I sure am thinking of buying a cheeper arrows.
I am sure all pros for the good arrows will say the shooter is the bigest dif. If I was good enough I could tell the difrants.I shure would like to have that guy standing at my house so I could get my $100 from him.I shure felt like a heal giving jim $100 so he could buy more wallmart arows :{I sure am glade I did not bet more.
Some of the guys should get togeather and try this. I would love to hear what all outhers have to say.
1st guy shoots 3-d select .001
2nd guy shoots same 3-d
3rd guy shoots easton car. excel .005
4th guy shoots wallmart gamegetter ll not sure but shuld be bad :}
I shoot beman ics camo hunter .002
We all shoot difrant rounds using all the aroows.All bows are 65-70# draw 29 in the wallmart arows where 30 in.We all shot from 20yd 40yd and 60yd.Knowing the what arrow you where shooting you would think that the $100 arows would be way better than the lesser arrows.Well I sure ate my words as I was handing my $100 to jim [the wallmart guy] Non of us could tell any difrants in the arows for acracy. Of corse they all grouped in dif spots but groups stayed tight depending on what shooter shot them.
I am one for buying very good items to hunt with.I normaly loose or break 4 dz arrows a year. I sure am thinking of buying a cheeper arrows.
I am sure all pros for the good arrows will say the shooter is the bigest dif. If I was good enough I could tell the difrants.I shure would like to have that guy standing at my house so I could get my $100 from him.I shure felt like a heal giving jim $100 so he could buy more wallmart arows :{I sure am glade I did not bet more.
Some of the guys should get togeather and try this. I would love to hear what all outhers have to say.