speed
#31
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: speed
as unhealthy as a blunder buss compaired to a 30-06
A .223 puts out about the same energy as a 45-70 Gov't, with a lighter, faster bullet and much flatter trajectory. Tell you what. We'll take 2 rounds apiece. You, as the speed whiz, get to take the .223 and I'll take the ol' 45-70 punkin roller. We'll go hunting grizzly bears in heavy cover.
#32
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West CO
Posts: 941
RE: speed
ORIGINAL: Bigpapascout
if you will notice the guy is pretty close to Lousiania where hunting White tail with a 22 LR is legal.
ORIGINAL: Techy
Actually the .22 LR is the prefered weapon of poachers and could have possibly killed more deer than any other caliber.[8D]
ORIGINAL: ewolf
Apples to apples. You are talking of a lighter slower bullet Let me think, I think with an arrow you would have to go heavier to slow it down.
Hey how about this. i will use a .22 because its fast and has more energy than a bow.
Apples to apples. You are talking of a lighter slower bullet Let me think, I think with an arrow you would have to go heavier to slow it down.
Hey how about this. i will use a .22 because its fast and has more energy than a bow.
Actually the .22 LR is the prefered weapon of poachers and could have possibly killed more deer than any other caliber.[8D]
I wasn't insinuating anybody is a poacher, just stating a fact. Sorry if anyone took offense. 22LR isn't leagal for deer in MI.
#33
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West CO
Posts: 941
RE: speed
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
Terrrible comparison. Muzzleloading shotgun vs high powered rifle? C'mon! Let's do this right.
A .223 puts out about the same energy as a 45-70 Gov't, with a lighter, faster bullet and much flatter trajectory. Tell you what. We'll take 2 rounds apiece. You, as the speed whiz, get to take the .223 and I'll take the ol' 45-70 punkin roller. We'll go hunting grizzly bears in heavy cover.
as unhealthy as a blunder buss compaired to a 30-06
A .223 puts out about the same energy as a 45-70 Gov't, with a lighter, faster bullet and much flatter trajectory. Tell you what. We'll take 2 rounds apiece. You, as the speed whiz, get to take the .223 and I'll take the ol' 45-70 punkin roller. We'll go hunting grizzly bears in heavy cover.
I'd take the .223[8D]
Naw probably not, but it could kill a bear none the less. as long as it isn't loaded with HP's. Couple solids in the head should do it. I have seen one arrow in the head kill a giant Griz.
#34
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Memphis TN USA
Posts: 3,445
RE: speed
Actually, depending on which bullets you compare the 45-70 carries close to 1000 more foot pounds at the muzzle. Ironically the lighter 45-70 bullet has a lot more energy than the heavier. That being said, do you think a grizzly that is shot in the head with a 223 is going to be any less dead than a grizzly shot in the heart by a 45-70? At the end of the day all the really matters is personal preference. It's pretty hard to argue with success and I am sure that none of the 15 deer that I have killed with my Patriots in the last three years knew that my "speed" bow or fast arrow was difficult to shoot or get good arrow flight. As a matter of fact, if they were able, I am sure they would argue to the contrary. Could I have killed them with a slower bow or arrow? Probably so. Have I hurt myself in anyway by shooting a fast bow and putting arrows out there in the 280's? I am gonna have to say NO and let the stats speak for themselves.
#35
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West CO
Posts: 941
RE: speed
ORIGINAL: silentassassin
That being said, do you think a grizzly that is shot in the head with a 223 is going to be any less dead than a grizzly shot in the heart by a 45-70?
That being said, do you think a grizzly that is shot in the head with a 223 is going to be any less dead than a grizzly shot in the heart by a 45-70?
Not saying anymore dead, just dead as well
and playing around stirring the pot.
By the way I like the rest of what you said
#36
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: speed
You guys miss the part about "in heavy cover"? You got the stones to stand there and take careful aim on the head of a charging griz with a .223? I seriously do doubt it. Point is, you have a very limited shot selection with the .223 and you have to be right on for it to work. I've got a much greater selection of potentially lethal hits with the 45-70 and a better chance of stopping that charging bear.
Yep, and I'll stack my 50 years of success with heavy arrows up against... well, however many you've got.
Do light, fast arrows work? Yes, if you can drive them fast enough. If you hit precisely where you aim. If you have proper shot selection. If you don't try and stretch the shot distance so far the light arrow bleeds off too much speed and energy just cutting through the air. If, if, if....
On the other hand, a heavy arrow has far fewer "if's" and, when shot from the same bow, it ALWAYS arrives on target with more energy and momentum than a light arrow for better penetratation potential. Does that matter with deer? Not really, not if everything goes right. It's those times Murphy takes a hand in the process though...
t's pretty hard to argue with success...
Do light, fast arrows work? Yes, if you can drive them fast enough. If you hit precisely where you aim. If you have proper shot selection. If you don't try and stretch the shot distance so far the light arrow bleeds off too much speed and energy just cutting through the air. If, if, if....
On the other hand, a heavy arrow has far fewer "if's" and, when shot from the same bow, it ALWAYS arrives on target with more energy and momentum than a light arrow for better penetratation potential. Does that matter with deer? Not really, not if everything goes right. It's those times Murphy takes a hand in the process though...
#37
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: West CO
Posts: 941
RE: speed
ORIGINAL: Arthur P
You guys miss the part about "in heavy cover"? You got the stones to stand there and take careful aim on the head of a charging griz with a .223? I seriously do doubt it. Point is, you have a very limited shot selection with the .223 and you have to be right on for it to work. I've got a much greater selection of potentially lethal hits with the 45-70 and a better chance of stopping that charging bear.
You guys miss the part about "in heavy cover"? You got the stones to stand there and take careful aim on the head of a charging griz with a .223? I seriously do doubt it. Point is, you have a very limited shot selection with the .223 and you have to be right on for it to work. I've got a much greater selection of potentially lethal hits with the 45-70 and a better chance of stopping that charging bear.
Yeah. No, just playing with you a bit Arthur. I can see both sides of the fence. One side just looks more appealing to me. Granted most of your shots are close, but I like the capability. For example, some of the squirrels I have shot were over 50 yards. Speed is a handy tool in that situation.[8D]
#38
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Memphis TN USA
Posts: 3,445
RE: speed
Yep, and I'll stack my 50 years of success with heavy arrows up against... well, however many you've got
#40
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: speed
I am assuming you aren't advocating that it's OK to take bad shots as long as your shooting a heavier arrow
I personally prefer to shoot in the upper 70's of KE just for those murphy type cases.
About videos, I've seen all kinds of stuff on video. I was watching one just the other day where a guy shot a deer, arrow came to a dead stop in the rib cage and the deer ran off. Lo and behold! The guy climbs down outta his tree and walks over to where the deer was and says "There's my arrow. Lots of good sign on that arrow." Now that was quite a trick, seeing as how the deer ran off with the fletchings sticking out his side. Of course, he never picked up that arrow to show to the camera. That would've been an even better trick. LOL
And that's far from the first time I've seen such goings on with light arrows on video. I don't doubt the gal got her elk with a light arrow, but don't try and tell me it 'blew through'. They can't even get 'em to reliably blow through puny little deer on video. Watch a few kill shots in stop frame and you'll what I'm talking about.