Bowtechs new cam system
01-22-2005, 07:41 PM
#41
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alvo Nebraska USA
Posts: 2,057
RE: Bowtechs new cam system
I did some checking on my Allegiance today concerning twisting the string to change draw length. I took out 6 twists and checked the ATA, brace height and draw length. As close as I could measure, the ATA increased 1/16" and the brace height increased 1/16" also. Draw length was also increased by 1/8" and the let off seemed unaffected from the factory setting at 80% let off. I would expect that by putting 6 twists IN the string that draw length, ATA and brace height would be decreased the same amount also.
Looks like the Equalizer cam system can be easily fine tuned for draw length. I didn't weigh the bow, before and after changes were made but it seemed to have no affect on draw weight.
Because the actual AMO draw length was a bit on the short side of a 29 inch draw length, I ended up leaving 4 turns out of the string from the factory setting.
The birth certificate said that this bow shot 317 fps through the factory chrono and I got the same speed with my chrono also with a 301.4 grain arrow.
I'm wondering now,, with 4 turns out from factory,, am I now shooting 320 fps
Looks like the Equalizer cam system can be easily fine tuned for draw length. I didn't weigh the bow, before and after changes were made but it seemed to have no affect on draw weight.
Because the actual AMO draw length was a bit on the short side of a 29 inch draw length, I ended up leaving 4 turns out of the string from the factory setting.
The birth certificate said that this bow shot 317 fps through the factory chrono and I got the same speed with my chrono also with a 301.4 grain arrow.
I'm wondering now,, with 4 turns out from factory,, am I now shooting 320 fps
01-22-2005, 08:41 PM
#42
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oh USA
Posts: 1,584
RE: Bowtechs new cam system
ewolf:
Could you please explain? From what horse's mouth? I'd be interested to know if cams were checked when new, and at the present time. And exactly how much, if any, difference there is. As you may or may not know, there are no bushings in the BowTechs. They have bearings in the cams and wheels.
Anyhow , I saw an Old Glory that has been shot by an employee of the bowtech dealer 2 hours from here. Cam lean is a problem(200 shots a day for almost a month). I did get to shoot one, it was very nice. I do like the cam draw force curve I think it will be very accurate, much in the way the 10MM is a very accurate pistol. However, I can tell when a bows bushings are goning, and that will be a problem on this bow. This is all from the horses mouth. When I walked in I told him it was between an OG and a Protec (which he don't sell). He would have ever reason to make it look as good as can be, however he told me he wouldn't own one until next years models.
As for the attacks that have happen as of this post.
Different opinions are fine, just don't make it personnel.
I pose this question to all of those that bought a new bowtech and think its the best bow ever. Has anyone ever bought a bow and thought it was total junk (In the last 5 years) and not the best bow they have ever shot?
As for the attacks that have happen as of this post.
Different opinions are fine, just don't make it personnel.
I pose this question to all of those that bought a new bowtech and think its the best bow ever. Has anyone ever bought a bow and thought it was total junk (In the last 5 years) and not the best bow they have ever shot?
01-22-2005, 08:48 PM
#43
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Eastern PA USA
Posts: 1,398
RE: Bowtechs new cam system
Russ:
It is good to hear that the draw length can be fine tuned with string twisting/untwisting. I always suspected it would be. I would suspect you could also twist both cables to increase draw length and weight like a twin since the cam lobe on the front of the cam gives much more leverage than the little egg-shaped 3rd track does.
The fighting and bickering are frustrating to people just looking for info. There are those who want to find something bad about this system for some reason. Some are just a lot more subtle in how it is stated. Certainly the guy who started this thread has a problem with Bowtech, just read some of his other "contributions." Then, of course, this is known as "Bowtech BBS" for a reason, so there will be a reaction.
As far as technical info on the equalizer system, how many people outside the company really have had any of the bows long enough to do a thorough analysis? I for one am looking forward to more information from Len. I thoroughly respect and trust what he has to say. I think he will analyze the system until he has left no stone unturned, and those who want to know will have their questions answered.
I personally have no vested interest in the success of the Bowtech Equalizer bows. I have a new 2004 bow that I am very happy with, and plan on buying no new bows this year. That said, I really think it is a very interesting system. When I got my first look at it, my thoughts were "That's cool, why didn't someone think of this sooner?" Imagine, if someone thought about doing this in say 1990 or '91, would the solocam ever have been a major player in the bow market? Synchronzation issues? What issues?
It is good to hear that the draw length can be fine tuned with string twisting/untwisting. I always suspected it would be. I would suspect you could also twist both cables to increase draw length and weight like a twin since the cam lobe on the front of the cam gives much more leverage than the little egg-shaped 3rd track does.
The fighting and bickering are frustrating to people just looking for info. There are those who want to find something bad about this system for some reason. Some are just a lot more subtle in how it is stated.
Certainly the guy who started this thread has a problem with Bowtech, just read some of his other "contributions." Then, of course, this is known as "Bowtech BBS" for a reason, so there will be a reaction.As far as technical info on the equalizer system, how many people outside the company really have had any of the bows long enough to do a thorough analysis? I for one am looking forward to more information from Len. I thoroughly respect and trust what he has to say. I think he will analyze the system until he has left no stone unturned, and those who want to know will have their questions answered.
I personally have no vested interest in the success of the Bowtech Equalizer bows. I have a new 2004 bow that I am very happy with, and plan on buying no new bows this year. That said, I really think it is a very interesting system. When I got my first look at it, my thoughts were "That's cool, why didn't someone think of this sooner?" Imagine, if someone thought about doing this in say 1990 or '91, would the solocam ever have been a major player in the bow market? Synchronzation issues? What issues?
01-22-2005, 09:25 PM
#44
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alvo Nebraska USA
Posts: 2,057
RE: Bowtechs new cam system
I think you're right Joe,, if this system came out in 90 or 91, there wouldn't be any single or hybrid systems now,,, IMO. This system is the way the dual cam system should have went loooonnnnggg ago.
I really took note of the lack of cam lean on my bow at full draw,, several times today and concluded that,, I'm looking for something than just isn't there at full draw. At brace, there is a bit of lean and my thinking tells me that the arrow is GONE by that time
From now on, I'm just going to enjoy my bow and look for the steady hold on target that I need desperately to improve on while maintaining a good form and follow through
I really took note of the lack of cam lean on my bow at full draw,, several times today and concluded that,, I'm looking for something than just isn't there at full draw. At brace, there is a bit of lean and my thinking tells me that the arrow is GONE by that time
From now on, I'm just going to enjoy my bow and look for the steady hold on target that I need desperately to improve on while maintaining a good form and follow through
01-22-2005, 11:11 PM
#45
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 881
RE: Bowtechs new cam system
The horses mouth is a very well respected dealer. He has shot several MBR scores over 400 and a few open scores in the high 90's. The cam lean was 3 times that of when the bow was measured new (How he measured I don't know). He has since started fresh with a new one to see if this was just a once in a blue moon bow.
01-24-2005, 05:54 AM
#46
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Memphis TN USA
Posts: 3,445
RE: Bowtechs new cam system
Guys, if you have a problem with one anothers posts, take it to PM. I don't like to read page after page of arguement when I'm looking for the real post to a thread.
instead of posting it here on this thread and doing precisely what you are complaining about
[&:]
01-24-2005, 08:21 AM
#47
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oh USA
Posts: 1,584
RE: Bowtechs new cam system
The cam lean was 3 times that of when the bow was measured new
01-24-2005, 08:42 AM
#48
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: Bowtechs new cam system
I did take the Old Glory apart last week to change the cam size. I was impressed by the very tight fit of the axle to both the bearings and the limbs.
This is good news , and relates to the original post .
01-25-2005, 07:22 AM
#49
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Bowtechs new cam system
We're all knowledgeable to some degree. Why can't we just get along? Let's debate and contribute, not argue.
I know that I'd be nowhere in this world if I hadn't depended on the expertise of others. If you go into an engineering meeting, you always have different disciplines from which to draw. An engineer can design it, but can it be produced - economically or otherwise.
As some of you may have seen in another post I made, I have the flu right now. I'm almost over it, but it really hit me hard. I had to close the shop yesterday and would have done it today, except that I have a customer from Greece who needed my help.
While I was waiting for him, I did some more testing on a variety of cam systems/manufacturers. I wasn't surprised at the complexity of this issue. I was doing both static and dynamic(full draw) analysis. What surprised me moreso was it's there in almost every design.
There was one bow, however, that was ABSOLUTELY perfect - not a bit of lean in either mode. Don't ask me because I won't tell you which manufacturer. The beauty of this bow on paper is only overshadowed by the fact that I can't get this bow to tune. I sent it back to the manufacturer a month ago because of the tuning problem. The manufacturer found that one limb pocket was cracked and that both were loose.
The bow came back totally fixed with new string/cable(s) and finitely adjusted to factory specs. It still won't tune and there is NO CAM LEAN in either mode. Go figure. I took a brand new model of the same bow off the shelf and it had cam lean of about 1/2". Go figure. And, for the most part, I've tuned this design over the years for numerous customers with absolutely no problems.
I know that there are some designs that will 'walk' in the opposite direction if you play with the split yokes incorrectly. Sometimes it's like trying to balance something on a razor blade. Just a touch too much and you're off in the opposite direction.
Another thing that I noticed today was that one of the BowTech bows which had been extremely tight on lean was not the same. The only thing I had done was change the cams to a different DL. As tight as the tolerances are, there are still tolerances to consider.
A bow is a very complex system. There are so many things that can cause variances in the end result. To think that you will get an ABSOLUTELY perfect product is wrong. Like a new car salesman told me a long time ago when I was nit-picking - "If you want a perfect product, you'll have to pay a LOT more."
So, let's give this new cam system a chance. I will continue to do testing; but, it can't/won't happen too soon. Remember, one cam designs have improved tremendously over the past ten years. I was quick to judge them, and rightfully so. But, isn't that what usually makes for a better product?
This flu has really kicked my butt. I wish you all good health.
I know that I'd be nowhere in this world if I hadn't depended on the expertise of others. If you go into an engineering meeting, you always have different disciplines from which to draw. An engineer can design it, but can it be produced - economically or otherwise.
As some of you may have seen in another post I made, I have the flu right now. I'm almost over it, but it really hit me hard. I had to close the shop yesterday and would have done it today, except that I have a customer from Greece who needed my help.
While I was waiting for him, I did some more testing on a variety of cam systems/manufacturers. I wasn't surprised at the complexity of this issue. I was doing both static and dynamic(full draw) analysis. What surprised me moreso was it's there in almost every design.
There was one bow, however, that was ABSOLUTELY perfect - not a bit of lean in either mode. Don't ask me because I won't tell you which manufacturer. The beauty of this bow on paper is only overshadowed by the fact that I can't get this bow to tune. I sent it back to the manufacturer a month ago because of the tuning problem. The manufacturer found that one limb pocket was cracked and that both were loose.
The bow came back totally fixed with new string/cable(s) and finitely adjusted to factory specs. It still won't tune and there is NO CAM LEAN in either mode. Go figure. I took a brand new model of the same bow off the shelf and it had cam lean of about 1/2". Go figure. And, for the most part, I've tuned this design over the years for numerous customers with absolutely no problems.
I know that there are some designs that will 'walk' in the opposite direction if you play with the split yokes incorrectly. Sometimes it's like trying to balance something on a razor blade. Just a touch too much and you're off in the opposite direction.
Another thing that I noticed today was that one of the BowTech bows which had been extremely tight on lean was not the same. The only thing I had done was change the cams to a different DL. As tight as the tolerances are, there are still tolerances to consider.
A bow is a very complex system. There are so many things that can cause variances in the end result. To think that you will get an ABSOLUTELY perfect product is wrong. Like a new car salesman told me a long time ago when I was nit-picking - "If you want a perfect product, you'll have to pay a LOT more."
So, let's give this new cam system a chance. I will continue to do testing; but, it can't/won't happen too soon. Remember, one cam designs have improved tremendously over the past ten years. I was quick to judge them, and rightfully so. But, isn't that what usually makes for a better product?
This flu has really kicked my butt. I wish you all good health.
01-25-2005, 10:36 AM
#50
Super Moderator
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Southeast Central Illinois USA
Posts: 6,969
RE: Bowtechs new cam system
Better health to you Len!
Lets stay with the technical side, personal posts about who knows more than the other or attacks on each other will only result in deletions and editing of posts...something that us mods grow tired of.[
]
As far as cam lean and cam systems, Len hit on something..........tolerances. Nothing is perfect and never will be. What we can expect is for something to be near as perfect as possible. With or without technical data, its still up to the individual archer as to what is comfortable and fun to shoot. This is what makes archery unique in my unexpert opinion. Some archers are more comfortable shooting what may or is perceived to be a less than top quality product, and they shoot them well. Some archers can shoot a less than top of the line bow equally as well as a top of the line bow. All in all, lets have fun here and hopefully some of us can learn something.
Lets stay with the technical side, personal posts about who knows more than the other or attacks on each other will only result in deletions and editing of posts...something that us mods grow tired of.[
] As far as cam lean and cam systems, Len hit on something..........tolerances. Nothing is perfect and never will be. What we can expect is for something to be near as perfect as possible. With or without technical data, its still up to the individual archer as to what is comfortable and fun to shoot. This is what makes archery unique in my unexpert opinion. Some archers are more comfortable shooting what may or is perceived to be a less than top quality product, and they shoot them well. Some archers can shoot a less than top of the line bow equally as well as a top of the line bow. All in all, lets have fun here and hopefully some of us can learn something.