Pinwheel 12

In technical estimation (not just the usual blowing biased smoke please) what does this symetrical system have that asymetrical hybrid systems, (which BTW have great nock travel AND drawlength adjustments in 1/2 increments via modules) do not have? To date no-one has been able to answer this question with an intelligent and/or non-biased response on this or any of the boards....

Asymetrical hybrids have a 3 track on the bottom cam and a 2 track and yoke on top instead of another 3 track on top as this system exhibits. That's the obvious physical difference of course---what I'm looking for is hands-on comparable tech analysis from anyone (other than Bowtechs staff shooters, fantical fans, or dealers) who has tested this system thoroughly and put one on an apple machine or crankboard side by side with other hybrids to compare nock travel, limbtip travel, and other static measurements, or, better yet, shot them both side by side with NO BIAS, AT DISTANCE out of comparable ATA and brace height bows, either with a hooter shooter, or freehanded.

Reason I ask is that from my own technical knowledge of current cam designs, once you factor the berger hole being higher than the centerline of the bow, much like a true twin I would then venture that the symmetrical hybrid cams' nock travel would thus start out high also as well. Twin cam designer Lloyd Napier recently built an asymetrical twin cam system with one cam of slightly larger radius to compensate for this phenomenon and thus incorporate true straight and level nock travel. But it cannot be done on cam systems that are perfectly symetrical due to design.

Asymetrical hybrid systems also allow manufacturers to "build in" a wide timing range via modules for an easily-adjustable dynamic balance range allotment which promotes improved holding/ aiming qualities while still maintaining the excellent nock travel at all drawlengths. Standard symetrical twins can also achieve this to an extent with a preferred cable twist here or there but unfortunately CANNOT develop perfect nock travel at the same time IF they're perfectly symetrical, as this system is stated to be. If the symetrical hybrid is in fact perfectly symetrical and self centering and does not allow for this individual dynamic balance adjustment due to it's design as implied, (in other words if one can spin the power cables 25 twists as bowtech staff have stated without affecting the nocking point height/limbtip travel /dynamic balance ) how can individualized dynamic balance be acheived then? Dynamic balance is very important also to overall shootability and so this question is my most prevalent of this design.

I recently shot the Equalizer and it is fast, yes, but speed honestly means little to me, been there, done that, one always gives to get there. The speed increase here is due to the early peak and strong force draw curve of this system, plus the fact that it has no yoke which also slows a bow down slightly. Yokes with symmetrical systems however compensate for any speed loss with being able to straighten the string/limb/cam alignment with an outrigger buss twist on one side or the other should one experience any cam lean-- something one cannot do with this new system-- no matter how close to the cam the cables are attached, it will still exhibit some side-pull--- whether enough to wear bushings quickly or affect accuracy remains to be seen of course---it stacks heavy on the front end of the draw and then settles down, and altho I wouldn't call it "smooth" as others have done, I would say it is very "manageable". On the individual bow I shot along with others in the same shop there was some cam lean , at least as much as many solocams I've tested previously with a laser. As stated and to be more than fair, whether it becomes an issue or not will be determined over time and as an increased number of draw cycles are exhibited. We’ll see.

I will be further testing this design in the coming weeks as I am very interested in it's overall technical stature as opposed to other current hybrid designs, as stated above. Any true technical (and non-biased) input from anyone will of course be appreciated.

Basically, I like to know how things "tick"-- I for one don't believe everything I read or fall for the “I’ve got one and it’s great” hype until I know myself it is warranted--- I've seen that stuff far too many times, from far too many manufacturers and their Staff/ fans.... Like I said, I shot the bow myself, so I know how it feels. It’s a solid bow--- the cam system needs a closer look IMHO. Still has the same Gordon limbs, same riser, same everything most other Bowtechs have. Hype from staff and fans carries a lot of weight tho, and they will sell boatloads of them.

So the single lingering question remains---what makes this design better than any of the other current asymeterical hybrid systems? Anyone?

Thanks much! Pinwheel 12

JOE PA

I get the impression that Len is looking at it pretty closely. You might want to PM him, as he hasn't been posting on any of the forums nearly as much as he used to.[&:]

Pinwheel 12

Thanks, Joe---I'm not on as much as i used to be either, not as much time available and the boards are IMHO not the same as they used to be. I spoke to Len at the ATA show and we are going to compare notes as we both find the time to do so and run this system thru the mill. I was hoping there may be some other techs who could comment. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

PABowhntr

Obviously, I am not a tech. and I have been shooting Bowtechs quite a bit lately so you may consider me biased. However, I don't have an Equalizer cam system bow at the moment so that has to count for something.

I cannot address your question Kevin in the manner in which you are requesting however I might have some more questions to either aid you or for you to aid others.

First......

Could not the same thing be said of hybrid designs since there is not a split yoke on one end as well or does this quote answer my question....

In other words the lack of the modular adjustability (as on conventional hybrid designs) on the new Equalizer cam system takes away from its ability to be fine-tuned?


Second.....

As I stated, I am not a true tech. but would ask if you had read through the explanation of the Equalizer cam system on their website? I am not saying that to be sarcastic however I do remember reading something regarding how the lack of having any of the cables attached to the limbs in the conventional fashion helps to eliminate many nock travel issues caused by "irregular" or "inconsistant" limb flexing/movement.

Your thoughts on this?

BowTech_Shooter

Kevin,

I guess my best advice would be to talk to Len when he gets done with his testing or perhaps you can give Marlo Larson a call. As you know Marlo has nothing vested in BowTech but he has been to the plant to conduct some tesing and well, let's just say he left there very impressed with the new cam system. Those are my words, you should ask him yourself to see what he says.

Pinwheel 12

First......


Could not the same thing be said of hybrid designs since there is not a split yoke on one end as well or does this quote answer my question....

I think you answered that one yourself Frank. But to answer---Asymetrical hybrids have one yoke on top to help straighten any lean if needed. Twisting an outrigger on top will help to offset any sidepull on the bottom cam as well by laying everything more perpendicular. Taking that adjustable yoke away does not make things better IMHO---if anything the best scenario would be to ADD another one!


In other words the lack of the modular adjustability (as on conventional hybrid designs) on the new Equalizer cam system takes away from its ability to be fine-tuned?

Yes.


Second.....

As I stated, I am not a true tech. but would ask if you had read through the explanation of the Equalizer cam system on their website? I am not saying that to be sarcastic however I do remember reading something regarding how the lack of having any of the cables attached to the limbs in the conventional fashion helps to eliminate many nock travel issues caused by "irregular" or "inconsistant" limb flexing/movement.

Your thoughts on this?

Yes, I read through it of course but it tells me very little to be honest. Yokes help with torsional stiffness of the limbs in that they will help to keep limbs working in a centered fashion--pulling evenly and eccentrics centered--and even if there is only one yoke as with other asymetrical designs, at least there is SOME adjustment range to adjust with as needed, as opposed to none. With this system there is none at all with both cables hooked directly to the opposing axle and on the same side to boot. Remember also yokes start from the centerline, and these attach at the side of the cam which increases sidepull. Nock travel in all directions will remain more consistent with any centered system also.

Pinwheel 12

Pat--

Thanks for the info! I wll speak with both of them. (tho Len is a dealer of course[8D])

I know you had a good show, the Bowtech factory is going to be humming. See ya soon.

PABowhntr

Despite the lack of quotes I think I followed.

I think this directly relates to my "simplicity" thread. So, what you are suggesting is that the fact that the Equalizer cam system is designed to be more maintenance free also inhibits an individuals ability to tune it further?

Could not the same thing be said of hybrids and single cams to an extent...at least in comparison to dual cams?

ijimmy

80% of those on this board probably fit in there some where , so good luck on the unbiased answer , hunting.bbs , otherwise known as bowtech.bbs . I think camlean is the concern for most considering the equalizer system , time will tell , axil and bearing wear may or maynot make this show up . I havent yet heard of a problem and pepole have been checking for it . I will have some fisthand knowledge as my old glory is due in a couple weeks .

silentassassin

Maybe I missed it but did anyone say the E cam system was better than the conventional hybrids? Were some of the earlier posters implying that they are inferior? Or were they just saying the like the E cam? Pinwheel you seem to be hyper sensitive about this issue. You seem to take personal offense to the fact that several people here like Bowtech and the new cam system. You mentioned "objective" testing and "non-biased" testing but in the position you are in are we suppose to believe that you aren't biased. I respect your knowledge and opinion and the time you have put in to gain said knowledge but I will be perfectly honest, as long as you are associated with Merlin, I won't buy one. I am sure you are technically savy. But to listen to you, you are the only technically savy person on the face of the earth. Or at the very least the only one qualified to make such observations. If you think that you do yourself or your company a service by taking shots at your competitors or by portraying yourself as the only one smart enough to know what a real bow is, then you are sadly mistaken. You seem to think you can force people to believe the same way that you do. But you can't. You would get much further by being a little more gracious and acknowledging the fact that the other manufactuers also make quality equipment and then humbly explaining the benefits of your companies when asked. JMO