Low light visibilty stinks!
09-07-2002, 11:10 AM
#41
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
If you are having trouble seeing deer (or whatever target) through the peep in low light, and that is why you passed on the shot, your missing the point. With BOTH eyes open, you can shoot in any light that allows you to see the target with your non-peep using eye (left eye for most of us).
The peep useing eye ONLY needs to see the pin, the other eye sees the target. With both eyes open, you can see the target AND the pin.
Much like useing a red dot scope in bright conditions. You put a shade on the end of the scope. I can adjust mine so you can't see ANYTHING but the dot. I STILL hit my targets because my LEFT eye is looking at the target, and my right eye is looking at the sight. Focusing on the target brings the 2 together.
If you choose to shoot instinctive like Arthur, Great!!! It takes a lot of skill to shoot that way.
If you use pins (or crosshairs, or pendulum etc) you CAN make a peep work for you...even with "bad" eyes. The key is setting up the peep correctly, AND shooting with both eyes open. If you can't/won't shoot both eyes open, then I will conceed that you may be better off without them....in low very low light conditions at least.
The peep useing eye ONLY needs to see the pin, the other eye sees the target. With both eyes open, you can see the target AND the pin.
Much like useing a red dot scope in bright conditions. You put a shade on the end of the scope. I can adjust mine so you can't see ANYTHING but the dot. I STILL hit my targets because my LEFT eye is looking at the target, and my right eye is looking at the sight. Focusing on the target brings the 2 together.
If you choose to shoot instinctive like Arthur, Great!!! It takes a lot of skill to shoot that way.
If you use pins (or crosshairs, or pendulum etc) you CAN make a peep work for you...even with "bad" eyes. The key is setting up the peep correctly, AND shooting with both eyes open. If you can't/won't shoot both eyes open, then I will conceed that you may be better off without them....in low very low light conditions at least.
09-07-2002, 11:55 AM
#42
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
The following statements made by Arthur P and Straightarrow confirm that they are knowledgeable shooters.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"Drew, centered the pin in the peep….."<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"I couldn't tell if the pin was centered in the peep, …"<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Being an avid bowhunter, it is exhilarating to be in the company of real shooters. Kudos to Art and Straight for their expertise.
I would not be surprised to discover that many shooters who use a string peep do not realize that you must center the pin in the peep to be accurate, and consistently accurate. I am sure there are many shooters that believe you simply look through the hole, find your pin, and put the pin on the zone.
The knowledgeable shooters using a peep know about the pin centering aspect, and how difficult and distracting it can be to watch the game and try to focus on centering the pin at the same time; especially in low light.
Some peep users will actually set their pin bracket and pins so that the pin is resting at center on the base of the peephole, and at the right/left side of the peephole. I assume that procedure would roughly provide you a sighting system that would be like sight alignment on a firearm.
I sometimes wonder if the problems some shooters are having, shooting and maintaining a good group, occurs because they are not properly using (centering the pin) their peep.
Edited by - c903 on 09/07/2002 12:56:24
Edited by - c903 on 09/07/2002 17:38:03
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"Drew, centered the pin in the peep….."<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>"I couldn't tell if the pin was centered in the peep, …"<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Being an avid bowhunter, it is exhilarating to be in the company of real shooters. Kudos to Art and Straight for their expertise.
I would not be surprised to discover that many shooters who use a string peep do not realize that you must center the pin in the peep to be accurate, and consistently accurate. I am sure there are many shooters that believe you simply look through the hole, find your pin, and put the pin on the zone.
The knowledgeable shooters using a peep know about the pin centering aspect, and how difficult and distracting it can be to watch the game and try to focus on centering the pin at the same time; especially in low light.
Some peep users will actually set their pin bracket and pins so that the pin is resting at center on the base of the peephole, and at the right/left side of the peephole. I assume that procedure would roughly provide you a sighting system that would be like sight alignment on a firearm.
I sometimes wonder if the problems some shooters are having, shooting and maintaining a good group, occurs because they are not properly using (centering the pin) their peep.
Edited by - c903 on 09/07/2002 12:56:24
Edited by - c903 on 09/07/2002 17:38:03
09-07-2002, 02:39 PM
#43
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
Now that deer season is just about on top of us,I try shooting some very odd shots in the yard for those times that may warrant such a shot in the woods.Centering a peep does take time but if you have practiced enough,the process is automatic,such as an instinctive shooter.
I like to sit flat on my but and face my target at 30 yards,pull bow back while it is still pointed at the target while pulling.I get on the target quick and release.I do not waist time centering the pin in the peep because if you have ever shot this way,you understand how difficult it can be but having the peep insures that I have my anchor solid enough to shoot and make a quick kill.My groups shooting like this are about 4" at 30 yards.I would like to see this shot made that well without a peep.There are some that can do it but it is going to be much more difficult.This is with a 38" bow and I'm only 5'9".Another topic but shows that short bows aren't needed in the woods.
I also like to sit on my knees perpindicular to the target at 50 yards and shoot.A peep also helps to make this shot.
I realize a peep is not for everyone and have stated that.I also believe that they may be for some that think they can't shoot with them.Like I have said,shooting both eyes open is a key.
Shoot what you are comfortable with but saying a peep is a piece of useless crap is ludicrous and anytime you think so,I would be glad to shoot with anyone in any condition to prove my points.
I would also like to add that I have a couple of very reliable anchor points and anchor very well.I usually don't have to move to center my pin,it is mostly already there.Saying that,I have shot without a peep in the yard while setting up bows.I am accurate but not as accurate as with a peep.30 yards is pretty good but groups start to increase after that.4" groups at 30 if my memory serves me right.
Edited by - tfox on 09/07/2002 15:44:37
I like to sit flat on my but and face my target at 30 yards,pull bow back while it is still pointed at the target while pulling.I get on the target quick and release.I do not waist time centering the pin in the peep because if you have ever shot this way,you understand how difficult it can be but having the peep insures that I have my anchor solid enough to shoot and make a quick kill.My groups shooting like this are about 4" at 30 yards.I would like to see this shot made that well without a peep.There are some that can do it but it is going to be much more difficult.This is with a 38" bow and I'm only 5'9".Another topic but shows that short bows aren't needed in the woods.
I also like to sit on my knees perpindicular to the target at 50 yards and shoot.A peep also helps to make this shot.
I realize a peep is not for everyone and have stated that.I also believe that they may be for some that think they can't shoot with them.Like I have said,shooting both eyes open is a key.
Shoot what you are comfortable with but saying a peep is a piece of useless crap is ludicrous and anytime you think so,I would be glad to shoot with anyone in any condition to prove my points.
I would also like to add that I have a couple of very reliable anchor points and anchor very well.I usually don't have to move to center my pin,it is mostly already there.Saying that,I have shot without a peep in the yard while setting up bows.I am accurate but not as accurate as with a peep.30 yards is pretty good but groups start to increase after that.4" groups at 30 if my memory serves me right.
Edited by - tfox on 09/07/2002 15:44:37
09-07-2002, 08:07 PM
#44
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,299
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
C903, got a question for ya. Isn't hitting a consistant anchor one of the most important aspects of archery? I was taught to center the sight guard in the peep, and then find your peep, as it keeps your anchor consistant, and its easier to center the big guard instead of the pin. Wouldn't you be changing your anchor slightly when centering each pin? I realize if you sight the bow in this way, you should be changing your anchor consistantly for each pin.
Just curious to what yours, and others thoughts are.
I shoot well with a peep, and with the no-peep, and have been torn to go back to the No-Peep, as I did like the sight picture better with it.
Just curious to what yours, and others thoughts are.
I shoot well with a peep, and with the no-peep, and have been torn to go back to the No-Peep, as I did like the sight picture better with it.
09-07-2002, 08:19 PM
#45
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
Muzzyman88
I have to get on this also.I center with the housing with a scope,and it will move according to yardage.This will actually keep the anchor the same.What changes is the bow arm.
With pins I center off the pin ,this is the same as with a scope and the housing.This is the only way I can see to keep the anchor the same.If you go off the housing,the pin is not centered.I tried to do this myself and it was just too inconsistant.
I prefer the pin to center with and advise it.Others disagree and if it works then go for it.This may be some of the low light problems,the pin is too low in the peep to see it clearly.
Like I stated before,centering is second nature and I don't even notice doing it most of the time,the pin just falls into place.
I have to get on this also.I center with the housing with a scope,and it will move according to yardage.This will actually keep the anchor the same.What changes is the bow arm.
With pins I center off the pin ,this is the same as with a scope and the housing.This is the only way I can see to keep the anchor the same.If you go off the housing,the pin is not centered.I tried to do this myself and it was just too inconsistant.
I prefer the pin to center with and advise it.Others disagree and if it works then go for it.This may be some of the low light problems,the pin is too low in the peep to see it clearly.
Like I stated before,centering is second nature and I don't even notice doing it most of the time,the pin just falls into place.
09-07-2002, 09:58 PM
#46
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Central PA
Posts: 2,299
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
TFOX, I'm not following you bud. How is the bow arm changing? I have been drawing to anchor, and my peep, and sight guard are automatically centered. I then put the appropriate pin on target and make my shot. Is this wrong? I think everything is remaining the same from shot to shot. Also, what I did with my setup is to make sure that my pins are centered in the housing when I was sighting in. This way, they arent closer to the top or bottom, and would ultimately end up in the top or bottom of the peep also. Its worked pretty well for me.
What do you think?
What do you think?
09-07-2002, 11:32 PM
#47
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
IF you have a round pin guard, and you use more than one pin (you you have a movable pin, or pendulum) it is best to center your peep on the pin guard This means your farther shots will have that pin near the bottom of the peep.
The key, is to be consistant. IF you don't have a round pin guard, center the SAME pin in the peep each time, reguardless of which pin your aiming with, use the same pin you always use centered in your peep.
i.e. If your top pin is at 20 yards, and that's where you practice most, use that pin centered in your peep. Now, if you have a 40 yard shot, center the 20 yard pin in the peep, but put the 40 yard pin on the target.
It CAN be done the "other" way, your anchor doesn't change MUCH...but it does change. That is why I feel you should center the pin guard OR the same pin each time.
The key, is to be consistant. IF you don't have a round pin guard, center the SAME pin in the peep each time, reguardless of which pin your aiming with, use the same pin you always use centered in your peep.
i.e. If your top pin is at 20 yards, and that's where you practice most, use that pin centered in your peep. Now, if you have a 40 yard shot, center the 20 yard pin in the peep, but put the 40 yard pin on the target.
It CAN be done the "other" way, your anchor doesn't change MUCH...but it does change. That is why I feel you should center the pin guard OR the same pin each time.
09-08-2002, 05:32 AM
#48
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
C903, thanks for the compliment, but I'm not an expert. I have big game hunted for 32 years and have drawn on hundreds of animals, so I have a lot of experience in different situations. I know what I can see clearly and what I can't. Just to clarify - I haven't shot hundreds of animals. I pass on many each year, but I frequently draw on them and pretend I'm going to shoot. It gives me valuble practice in deciding when to take a shoot and where to "stop" a deer. I also get to practice drawing without being seen. I never do this on does and I always try to do it unnoticed.
As for when I shoot with a peep. I only shoot with one pin with an odd shaped pin guard, so the pin is all that gets centered. If I had a round pin guard, I'd center the guard to make it a bit easier. I have to squint with my left eye to avoid seeing double so light is decreased a bit further for me. If you have a real consistant anchor, a peep is not needed. The less consistant your anchor, the more valuble the peep will become.
As for when I shoot with a peep. I only shoot with one pin with an odd shaped pin guard, so the pin is all that gets centered. If I had a round pin guard, I'd center the guard to make it a bit easier. I have to squint with my left eye to avoid seeing double so light is decreased a bit further for me. If you have a real consistant anchor, a peep is not needed. The less consistant your anchor, the more valuble the peep will become.
09-08-2002, 09:14 AM
#49
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
Stealth_Force, not to pick on you because I've heard that centering the pin guard stuff independently from various sources. In my opinion, it's bunk. This probably should be a thread unto itself, but since we're discussing it...
I don't know who dictated that the pin guard should be centered in the peep, and that centering an individual pin in the peep changes your anchor but, in my estimation, they're full of blueberry muffins. Yes, the anchor does change, but so darned little it's imperceptable and inconsequential. Here's my reasoning.
Even with my slow ol' bow, the distance from my 20 pin to my 60 pin measures just under an inch. Doing a little trig work to figure out how much deflection a one inch leg on a triangle causes with a 30" side and how much the anchor actually changes...
Formula for finding the hypoteneuse of a right triangle is a^2 + b^2 = c^2 For a triangle with a 30" side and a 1" leg the hypoteneuse is 30.0166...". c/a = Sine angle C. 1/30.01666 = .03331. Sine .03331 = roughly 54 minutes of angle.
So, less than 1 degree of deflection and just 1/64th of an inch in anchor change. If anyone can prove to me that changing your anchor 1/64" makes any difference whatsoever in arrow placement, or that they can even feel the difference, I'll kiss their butt.
If your pins are more than 30" away from your anchor or your pins are closer together, the deflection and anchor change is even less than this example. I doubt that a majority of bowhunters even have a 60 yard pin on their sight. Very few of those even use that pin for hunting. Normal hunting ranges out to 40 yards, centering an individual pin in the peep doesn't change anchor enough to hardly measure.
Example: Distance between the 20 pin and 40 pin on my sight is .47". Using our 30" base for our triangle, centering the pins would change the draw length a whopping .0037". That's 37/10,000ths of an inch!
Centering the pin guard in the peep is a nice theory, but really... It just doesn't make enough difference to mess with. I want THAT specific pin centered in the peep and on target, instead of looking at the whole line of pins and trying to decide which one should be where.
I don't know who dictated that the pin guard should be centered in the peep, and that centering an individual pin in the peep changes your anchor but, in my estimation, they're full of blueberry muffins. Yes, the anchor does change, but so darned little it's imperceptable and inconsequential. Here's my reasoning.
Even with my slow ol' bow, the distance from my 20 pin to my 60 pin measures just under an inch. Doing a little trig work to figure out how much deflection a one inch leg on a triangle causes with a 30" side and how much the anchor actually changes...
Formula for finding the hypoteneuse of a right triangle is a^2 + b^2 = c^2 For a triangle with a 30" side and a 1" leg the hypoteneuse is 30.0166...". c/a = Sine angle C. 1/30.01666 = .03331. Sine .03331 = roughly 54 minutes of angle.
So, less than 1 degree of deflection and just 1/64th of an inch in anchor change. If anyone can prove to me that changing your anchor 1/64" makes any difference whatsoever in arrow placement, or that they can even feel the difference, I'll kiss their butt.
If your pins are more than 30" away from your anchor or your pins are closer together, the deflection and anchor change is even less than this example. I doubt that a majority of bowhunters even have a 60 yard pin on their sight. Very few of those even use that pin for hunting. Normal hunting ranges out to 40 yards, centering an individual pin in the peep doesn't change anchor enough to hardly measure.
Example: Distance between the 20 pin and 40 pin on my sight is .47". Using our 30" base for our triangle, centering the pins would change the draw length a whopping .0037". That's 37/10,000ths of an inch!
Centering the pin guard in the peep is a nice theory, but really... It just doesn't make enough difference to mess with. I want THAT specific pin centered in the peep and on target, instead of looking at the whole line of pins and trying to decide which one should be where.
09-08-2002, 08:58 PM
#50
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
Diddo on what Arthur said.
What I meant by bow arm moving is just that the further you are away from the target,the higher you hold your arm to still hit the target.Bow arm changes with every distance change regardless of the way you sight the pin.Didn't mean to confuse.
I have tried the round pin guard stuff and wasn't at all happy with the consistancy of it.I prefer using the individuall pin to give the best possible sight picture available.As a matter of fact the sight that I used didn't even make it a full season and is sitting in a box in the garage for the kids some day.
Like I said before,I do use the housing with my scope and it is always centered but so is the pin.
What I meant by bow arm moving is just that the further you are away from the target,the higher you hold your arm to still hit the target.Bow arm changes with every distance change regardless of the way you sight the pin.Didn't mean to confuse.
I have tried the round pin guard stuff and wasn't at all happy with the consistancy of it.I prefer using the individuall pin to give the best possible sight picture available.As a matter of fact the sight that I used didn't even make it a full season and is sitting in a box in the garage for the kids some day.
Like I said before,I do use the housing with my scope and it is always centered but so is the pin.