Low light visibilty stinks!
09-06-2002, 01:08 PM
#31
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
C903...
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>My emphasis is actually directed at those new shooters who are often misled by inaccurate comments and uncecessary trends.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Exactly the position I'm in with my viewpoint on very light arrows and excess speed. Inaccurate statements and unnecessary trends. Newbies shouldn't be force fed speed before they've had a chance to learn to shoot, before they've had a chance to hone their shooting form so they can control that speed.
Likewise, I think sights and peeps are great training aids, but not something I care to get addicted to. Especially to the point where I'm totally helpless and have to end a hunt when a sight breaks or when I can't see the pins during legal shooting hours.
Most of the accessory equipment on the market now restricts you to a rigid shooting form in order for it to operate correctly. Like BobCo pointed out with his rest, he MUST hold the bow perpendicular in order for it to function. That's the beauty of keeping things simple and assuming more personal responsibility for accuracy instead of relying on gadgetry. With my flipper rest and no sights, I can shoot my bow perpendicular or I can cant the thing nearly 90 degrees if I need to and still get an accurate shot off.
Should everyone hunt with my shooting style? Of course!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> But I don't expect them to.
Not everyone has been at it as long as I have nor does just everyone have the 'want to' to develop a variety of skills like I have. Not everyone has the basic hand/eye coordination shooting barebow requires. Same thing applies to peeps. Through no fault of their own, not just everyone is able to establish an anchor that is consistent enough to allow them to break away from using peeps or optical alignment devices.
Every single person's setup is as individual as they are. And that's as it should be, IMO. However, I do feel that people shouldn't allow themselves to get in a rut and they should at least experiment with different equipment and shooting styles. Might accidently find something that works better for them or that they simply get more enjoyment from.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>My emphasis is actually directed at those new shooters who are often misled by inaccurate comments and uncecessary trends.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Exactly the position I'm in with my viewpoint on very light arrows and excess speed. Inaccurate statements and unnecessary trends. Newbies shouldn't be force fed speed before they've had a chance to learn to shoot, before they've had a chance to hone their shooting form so they can control that speed.
Likewise, I think sights and peeps are great training aids, but not something I care to get addicted to. Especially to the point where I'm totally helpless and have to end a hunt when a sight breaks or when I can't see the pins during legal shooting hours.
Most of the accessory equipment on the market now restricts you to a rigid shooting form in order for it to operate correctly. Like BobCo pointed out with his rest, he MUST hold the bow perpendicular in order for it to function. That's the beauty of keeping things simple and assuming more personal responsibility for accuracy instead of relying on gadgetry. With my flipper rest and no sights, I can shoot my bow perpendicular or I can cant the thing nearly 90 degrees if I need to and still get an accurate shot off.
Should everyone hunt with my shooting style? Of course!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> But I don't expect them to.
Not everyone has been at it as long as I have nor does just everyone have the 'want to' to develop a variety of skills like I have. Not everyone has the basic hand/eye coordination shooting barebow requires. Same thing applies to peeps. Through no fault of their own, not just everyone is able to establish an anchor that is consistent enough to allow them to break away from using peeps or optical alignment devices.
Every single person's setup is as individual as they are. And that's as it should be, IMO. However, I do feel that people shouldn't allow themselves to get in a rut and they should at least experiment with different equipment and shooting styles. Might accidently find something that works better for them or that they simply get more enjoyment from.
09-06-2002, 01:19 PM
#32
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 1,906
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
Some interesting points/debates here...
I'll just add that I started shooting when I was 5. Shot longbow and recurve until the late 80's, then picked up a compound. Shot the first 3 compounds I owned without sites and did just fine.
However, with my last bow I switched to a full-fledged modern state-of-the-art bow. Fiber optic sights, shurza-peep, prong-rest and release.
One thing I will say about the new gadgets. Although my accuracy has not increased, my precision has. Not precision between groups, but precision from day to day, month to month. The sites, including the peep, at least for me direct my focus and force me to concentrate. Without sites, I know shooting "through the window" that a lack of concentration ALWAYS resulted in a bad shot. The lack of concentration with sites is evident before you release---hence you can hold the bow back a little longer and refocus.
But I still pick up the stickbow occasionally and fling some off the shelf, just for the fun of it...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I'll just add that I started shooting when I was 5. Shot longbow and recurve until the late 80's, then picked up a compound. Shot the first 3 compounds I owned without sites and did just fine.
However, with my last bow I switched to a full-fledged modern state-of-the-art bow. Fiber optic sights, shurza-peep, prong-rest and release.
One thing I will say about the new gadgets. Although my accuracy has not increased, my precision has. Not precision between groups, but precision from day to day, month to month. The sites, including the peep, at least for me direct my focus and force me to concentrate. Without sites, I know shooting "through the window" that a lack of concentration ALWAYS resulted in a bad shot. The lack of concentration with sites is evident before you release---hence you can hold the bow back a little longer and refocus.
But I still pick up the stickbow occasionally and fling some off the shelf, just for the fun of it...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
09-06-2002, 04:01 PM
#34
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
C903
The peep is another anchor along as a centering device.It is used to create a fulcrum aim point such as the rear sight on a rifle.They become much more usefull when shooting up hill and downhill.They help maintain the correct sight paralex by keeping everything in line.If used properly then they will tell you right away if your form is slacking,it should come to your eye and you shouldn't move to it.
It is obvious that my idea of accuracy and yours are different.Hunting accuracy is ok but I'm talking much closer than 4" groups at 30 yards,or even 40 yards for that matter.I will bet that Jeff Hopkins or Dave Cousins would have problems consistantly shooting 12 rings or bullseyes at 40 yards without a peep.Now,many will say that kind of accuracy isn't neccesary to hunt but the confidence that comes with knowing you can put an arrow in the right spot,no matter what kind of distance you are talking is very important.
straightarrow,take a flashlight in your backyard and aim at a 3-d target with it in complete darkness at 30 yards and then tell me if the situation of an early morning deer isn't very similar.
You are correct that some people havn,t got the eye sight ,as I mentioned in my first post on this subject.This would be an even stronger argument to shoot with both eyes open and then the situation might be different.
The peep is another anchor along as a centering device.It is used to create a fulcrum aim point such as the rear sight on a rifle.They become much more usefull when shooting up hill and downhill.They help maintain the correct sight paralex by keeping everything in line.If used properly then they will tell you right away if your form is slacking,it should come to your eye and you shouldn't move to it.
It is obvious that my idea of accuracy and yours are different.Hunting accuracy is ok but I'm talking much closer than 4" groups at 30 yards,or even 40 yards for that matter.I will bet that Jeff Hopkins or Dave Cousins would have problems consistantly shooting 12 rings or bullseyes at 40 yards without a peep.Now,many will say that kind of accuracy isn't neccesary to hunt but the confidence that comes with knowing you can put an arrow in the right spot,no matter what kind of distance you are talking is very important.
straightarrow,take a flashlight in your backyard and aim at a 3-d target with it in complete darkness at 30 yards and then tell me if the situation of an early morning deer isn't very similar.
You are correct that some people havn,t got the eye sight ,as I mentioned in my first post on this subject.This would be an even stronger argument to shoot with both eyes open and then the situation might be different.
09-06-2002, 08:00 PM
#35
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Elberton Georgia USA
Posts: 140
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
Question fellas,
I've been bowhunting for, well, since compounds became legal in Ga. I have a set up that's I'm comfortable and am very confident with it so I ain't too interested it changing my setup from peep to nothing on my string. I don't look at enough of the gear reviews and from reading all of the posts on this topic now I am wondering what the heck is a "no-peep". Does anyone have a link to a website that I can view this thing on?
Thanks,
GB
Smack 'em where it hurts!
I've been bowhunting for, well, since compounds became legal in Ga. I have a set up that's I'm comfortable and am very confident with it so I ain't too interested it changing my setup from peep to nothing on my string. I don't look at enough of the gear reviews and from reading all of the posts on this topic now I am wondering what the heck is a "no-peep". Does anyone have a link to a website that I can view this thing on?
Thanks,
GB
Smack 'em where it hurts!
09-06-2002, 08:24 PM
#36
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Burleson TX USA
Posts: 6,455
09-06-2002, 09:51 PM
#37
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Elberton Georgia USA
Posts: 140
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
Thanks Ausie-guy. After a quick look at this product, I might see if my local archery shop carries this type of peep. I, too, see the 'haze' off of a peepsight in the string in low light situations but have never considered shooting without a "back" sight. If I could install one of these no-peeps at the shop just to try it out, then I might just be interested in giving it a try. I did say I was satisfied with my setup, but if there's something new and I can prove to myself that it is at least as good as a string peep, just better <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>, then I am willing for a change. Thanks for a great lead on this new product.
Who said an old dog cannot learn new tricks!?!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
GB
Smack 'em where it hurts!
Who said an old dog cannot learn new tricks!?!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
GB
Smack 'em where it hurts!
09-07-2002, 12:50 AM
#38
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
TFOX is 100% right about the peep sight. I use a target peep (less than 1/8"
and shoot in my backyard after work (2nd shifter...I'm often shooting after midnight)
A peep is most likely the most accurate way to shoot a bow cost effectively (red dot might work as well....but pricey compared to a peep and pins). Again, that's why target shooters use them as well as hunters.
They are NOT unreliable peices of crap. If you know how to set up your bow, you don't need rubber tubing or anything else on your peep.
A simple drop of white out on your string will tell you IF your peep is slipping. IF they move at all, it is VERY slight and takes a LONG time (if done right). IF it moves, just move it back!
Open BOTH eyes when shooting!!! It helps you focus (ask your eye doctor) and lets you see the target with one eye unobstructed by pins or peeps or anything else. Your dominant eye should be looking at the pin through the peep. You brain will mix the 2 images and show a nice pin on the target.
Can't see your pins through the peep? If you have fiber optic pins and you can't see them...it's probably too late to shoot anyway. IF not...and it's legal, get a pin light, or a tritium pin.
Peeps WORK. Too many out there to debate that.
No-peeps work, but they don't seem to have the absolute accuracy of a peep (haven't seem many of them at Vegas yet...least not in the winners hands).
Set it up right, and it WILL work for you, and will NOT let you down. Set up is the key.
and shoot in my backyard after work (2nd shifter...I'm often shooting after midnight)A peep is most likely the most accurate way to shoot a bow cost effectively (red dot might work as well....but pricey compared to a peep and pins). Again, that's why target shooters use them as well as hunters.
They are NOT unreliable peices of crap. If you know how to set up your bow, you don't need rubber tubing or anything else on your peep.
A simple drop of white out on your string will tell you IF your peep is slipping. IF they move at all, it is VERY slight and takes a LONG time (if done right). IF it moves, just move it back!
Open BOTH eyes when shooting!!! It helps you focus (ask your eye doctor) and lets you see the target with one eye unobstructed by pins or peeps or anything else. Your dominant eye should be looking at the pin through the peep. You brain will mix the 2 images and show a nice pin on the target.
Can't see your pins through the peep? If you have fiber optic pins and you can't see them...it's probably too late to shoot anyway. IF not...and it's legal, get a pin light, or a tritium pin.
Peeps WORK. Too many out there to debate that.
No-peeps work, but they don't seem to have the absolute accuracy of a peep (haven't seem many of them at Vegas yet...least not in the winners hands).
Set it up right, and it WILL work for you, and will NOT let you down. Set up is the key.
09-07-2002, 06:52 AM
#39
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Set it up right, and it WILL work for you, and will NOT let you down. set up is the key.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Stealthforce,
Your statement is too broad. They don't work for everyone in every hunting situation. I have set up 3 different peeps, including a C-peep. They were all adjusted properly and had not moved. They all prevented me from shooting a deer in low light that I could have gotten without the peep. Two of these deer were within 5 yards and I couldn't tell if the pin was centered in the peep, much less exactly where on the deer it was. Admittedly, my eyesight is not the best, but I know there are many hunters with eyesight much worse than mine. I personally know at least a dozen hunters who ripped the peep off their bow, not because it had turned or moved, but because they missed a deer they couldn't see through it. We're not all delusional. It simply doesn't work for eveyone in every situation.
I hunt off and on with a group of about a dozen hard-core hunters that hunt virtually every day of bow season. All of these guys have more than 20 bows kills, a few with more than 50 and one with over 80. Not one of these guys uses a peep, although everyone has tried one at one point. Even if every one of these guys used a peep, I still wouldn't, but the fact that none of them like them, would be proof enough for me that they have let people down who have had them set up properly. The fact that I'm one of them who missed opportunities because of one, completely solidifies my opinion of them.
I'm not going to say they won't work for some in every situation, even though it's hard for me to believe. I will trust that it can. On the other hand, you should trust that it doesn't work in every situation for some who have them set up properly.
Stealthforce,
Your statement is too broad. They don't work for everyone in every hunting situation. I have set up 3 different peeps, including a C-peep. They were all adjusted properly and had not moved. They all prevented me from shooting a deer in low light that I could have gotten without the peep. Two of these deer were within 5 yards and I couldn't tell if the pin was centered in the peep, much less exactly where on the deer it was. Admittedly, my eyesight is not the best, but I know there are many hunters with eyesight much worse than mine. I personally know at least a dozen hunters who ripped the peep off their bow, not because it had turned or moved, but because they missed a deer they couldn't see through it. We're not all delusional. It simply doesn't work for eveyone in every situation.
I hunt off and on with a group of about a dozen hard-core hunters that hunt virtually every day of bow season. All of these guys have more than 20 bows kills, a few with more than 50 and one with over 80. Not one of these guys uses a peep, although everyone has tried one at one point. Even if every one of these guys used a peep, I still wouldn't, but the fact that none of them like them, would be proof enough for me that they have let people down who have had them set up properly. The fact that I'm one of them who missed opportunities because of one, completely solidifies my opinion of them.
I'm not going to say they won't work for some in every situation, even though it's hard for me to believe. I will trust that it can. On the other hand, you should trust that it doesn't work in every situation for some who have them set up properly.
09-07-2002, 07:21 AM
#40
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Low light visibilty stinks!
The reason I totally discarded the idea of peep-n-pins for hunting... About 15 years ago, broke down and took my compound hunting instead of my longbow. I was hunting rabbits on a bright, sunny day. Painted brass pins (dayglo orange), 3/16 hole in the peep. Saw a rabbit under a cedar bush in dark shade. Drew, centered the pin in the peep, rabbit disappeared. Looked around the string... Yep rabbit is still there. Moved back behind the peep, rabbit disappeared. Knew the rabbit had to be 'right there' and shot anyway. Rabbit was gone, hair and blood all over the arrow. Never found the rabbit and never had sights on a hunting bow since.
No such thing as a no-peep or fiber optics in those days. Fiber optics I like, but the no peep is something I wouldn't use.
Cost/benefit analysis:
No peep.... $40. Peep sight... $4. No sights... Free.
No peep... Easier to shoot in low light. Peep... Limits low light visibility. No sights... Legal hunting hours is your only limitation
No peep... Pretty darned accurate. Peep... Very best raw accuracy. No sights... Depends on how much you work at it.
No peep... Indicates bow torque. Peep... will let you twist hell out of a riser. Barebow... You're on your own.
Well, I could go on but you get the idea. Two large benefits for the no peep, and I'm sure many folks find those benefits worth the extra $36. Glad it works for you. I won't buy it.
I've bought two sets of sights in the past year. Played with 'em, tossed 'em in the box. Problem is, I beat myself up and stress out when I miss the X ring shooting sights. I've got enough stress in my life without my equipment adding to it!!
Shooting without sights is much more relaxing and enjoyable for me, and most everyone does their best shooting when they're relaxed and enjoying themselves. Shooting a bow when you're stressing out becomes a chore, something to be avoided. Enjoying your shooting will get you shooting more, and shooting more will eventually equal shooting better.
I'm pretty darn good at barebow, if I do say so myself, on a par with the above average pin shooter. The best pin shooters whup up on me on the 3D range and the open class boys are way out in the distance, but I've caused more than a couple dropped jaws. I love that part of it just as much as the shooting.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
But, however and whatever you decide to shoot, let your <font color=teal>enjoyment</font id=teal> dictate your equipment instead of unrealistic expectations or basing your choices on what everyone else is using.
Too many people stressing over paper tears, speed, noise, speed, penetration, speed... all kinds of superfluous BS. Anyone just go shooting to have FUN anymore?
Edited by - Arthur P on 09/07/2002 08:26:47
No such thing as a no-peep or fiber optics in those days. Fiber optics I like, but the no peep is something I wouldn't use.
Cost/benefit analysis:
No peep.... $40. Peep sight... $4. No sights... Free.
No peep... Easier to shoot in low light. Peep... Limits low light visibility. No sights... Legal hunting hours is your only limitation
No peep... Pretty darned accurate. Peep... Very best raw accuracy. No sights... Depends on how much you work at it.
No peep... Indicates bow torque. Peep... will let you twist hell out of a riser. Barebow... You're on your own.
Well, I could go on but you get the idea. Two large benefits for the no peep, and I'm sure many folks find those benefits worth the extra $36. Glad it works for you. I won't buy it.
I've bought two sets of sights in the past year. Played with 'em, tossed 'em in the box. Problem is, I beat myself up and stress out when I miss the X ring shooting sights. I've got enough stress in my life without my equipment adding to it!!
Shooting without sights is much more relaxing and enjoyable for me, and most everyone does their best shooting when they're relaxed and enjoying themselves. Shooting a bow when you're stressing out becomes a chore, something to be avoided. Enjoying your shooting will get you shooting more, and shooting more will eventually equal shooting better.
I'm pretty darn good at barebow, if I do say so myself, on a par with the above average pin shooter. The best pin shooters whup up on me on the 3D range and the open class boys are way out in the distance, but I've caused more than a couple dropped jaws. I love that part of it just as much as the shooting.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
But, however and whatever you decide to shoot, let your <font color=teal>enjoyment</font id=teal> dictate your equipment instead of unrealistic expectations or basing your choices on what everyone else is using.
Too many people stressing over paper tears, speed, noise, speed, penetration, speed... all kinds of superfluous BS. Anyone just go shooting to have FUN anymore?
Edited by - Arthur P on 09/07/2002 08:26:47