Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!
09-05-2002, 09:53 PM
#51
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: HENDERSON KY USA
Posts: 6,634
RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!
Well,now that the pissing match seems to be calming down.Maybe we can get back to the Snyper and wether or not it was an isolated incodent or was it an actuall problem with the design.It seems that there have been a few other reports of the same thing happening with these heads,so maybe it is in the design.
I agree that the Steelheads from Rocket would do an awesome job on Elk and I would not be afraid to use them.I would not use the heads that I use on deer because they have an aluminum ferrule and I am sure that wouldn't hold up to an elk.
I also get sick of the people saying to use a fix blade head because most fixed heads wouldn't hold up to a steelhead.The blades on Steelheads will bend but that is by design and is to ensure that you have penetration,hit extremely hard bone and the blade bends and continues forward and still cuts.Most fixed heads WILL NOT do this,they hit bone and stop or twist up and stop.I have twisted Thunderheads to look like spin wing vanes on deer.There are design flaws with both fixed and mechanicals and I like these types of discussions to point out advantages and disadvantages of both.
I know a lot think that cut to tip is best but they are probably the weekest of the bunch,except for a few that are extremely thick and heavy.You take piece of metal that thin and hit bone and it has to curl.
This is probably what makes the Muzzy so popular,it provides a chisel point(as are the Steelheads) that is by far the strongest way to go and put sharp blades with a moderate cut and you will be fine.
Silentassasin,you make valid points about tune but there is a lot more to tuning than arrow rest,nock heith and vane clearance.I am sure you know this due to advanced knowledge <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> of setting up bows.just pointing out to those that don't know.The cams or cams must be in perfect sink,they must not have any lean.A string and cable must be built properly and the right amount of twist must be built into them.I actually have a 1 cam that is tuned to be able to letup as much as 1/2" and it will still chrony the same speed.This is easier to achieve with a 2 cam but rare in a 1 cam(actually mine is the only one that this person has done that can do this).This bow had a professional(certified) build the string and was laser tuned and put on a Hooter Shooter to be fine tuned and I can say without a doubt that this is the most forgiving and best tuned bow I have ever shot.
You get a bow tuned to this level and the paper will be perfect,provided the shooter doesn't torque the heck out of the bow.I hate to see people that torque to paper tune their bow because they always end up with an untuned bow that shoots good paper.Those people need to have someone else tune the bow and then learn to shoot it thru paper without torquing it.
Yes,I can tune a bow very well by myself but got an oportunity to get my bow done very cheap and I said what the heck.Glad I did.My scores have improved drastically and my confidence is soring with them.
I agree that the Steelheads from Rocket would do an awesome job on Elk and I would not be afraid to use them.I would not use the heads that I use on deer because they have an aluminum ferrule and I am sure that wouldn't hold up to an elk.
I also get sick of the people saying to use a fix blade head because most fixed heads wouldn't hold up to a steelhead.The blades on Steelheads will bend but that is by design and is to ensure that you have penetration,hit extremely hard bone and the blade bends and continues forward and still cuts.Most fixed heads WILL NOT do this,they hit bone and stop or twist up and stop.I have twisted Thunderheads to look like spin wing vanes on deer.There are design flaws with both fixed and mechanicals and I like these types of discussions to point out advantages and disadvantages of both.
I know a lot think that cut to tip is best but they are probably the weekest of the bunch,except for a few that are extremely thick and heavy.You take piece of metal that thin and hit bone and it has to curl.
This is probably what makes the Muzzy so popular,it provides a chisel point(as are the Steelheads) that is by far the strongest way to go and put sharp blades with a moderate cut and you will be fine.
Silentassasin,you make valid points about tune but there is a lot more to tuning than arrow rest,nock heith and vane clearance.I am sure you know this due to advanced knowledge <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> of setting up bows.just pointing out to those that don't know.The cams or cams must be in perfect sink,they must not have any lean.A string and cable must be built properly and the right amount of twist must be built into them.I actually have a 1 cam that is tuned to be able to letup as much as 1/2" and it will still chrony the same speed.This is easier to achieve with a 2 cam but rare in a 1 cam(actually mine is the only one that this person has done that can do this).This bow had a professional(certified) build the string and was laser tuned and put on a Hooter Shooter to be fine tuned and I can say without a doubt that this is the most forgiving and best tuned bow I have ever shot.
You get a bow tuned to this level and the paper will be perfect,provided the shooter doesn't torque the heck out of the bow.I hate to see people that torque to paper tune their bow because they always end up with an untuned bow that shoots good paper.Those people need to have someone else tune the bow and then learn to shoot it thru paper without torquing it.
Yes,I can tune a bow very well by myself but got an oportunity to get my bow done very cheap and I said what the heck.Glad I did.My scores have improved drastically and my confidence is soring with them.
09-05-2002, 10:50 PM
#53
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!
It was asked a bit earlier why you would shoot a mech head if you can geta fixed blade to fly.
I'll give a few reasons.
1. Even if you get fixed heads to hit the same spot as field points....this is done without a lot of wind. And wind, and things change...FAST. Accuracy is MORE important than head design
2. Many test have shown mech heads to penetrate BETTER than fixed heads. Whether these tests are accurate...who knows. I am developing tests that I feel are a bit more relevant (NO offence to ANY other tests....I just see some flaws with what has been conventional testing...you GOTTA start with fur in my book).
3. some of the mech heads are just plain TOUGH
I am not saying WHICH to use...I'll save that for my new tests. Just giving a couple of reasons WHY some choose to use them even WITH a well tuned bow.
I'll give a few reasons.
1. Even if you get fixed heads to hit the same spot as field points....this is done without a lot of wind. And wind, and things change...FAST. Accuracy is MORE important than head design
2. Many test have shown mech heads to penetrate BETTER than fixed heads. Whether these tests are accurate...who knows. I am developing tests that I feel are a bit more relevant (NO offence to ANY other tests....I just see some flaws with what has been conventional testing...you GOTTA start with fur in my book).
3. some of the mech heads are just plain TOUGH
I am not saying WHICH to use...I'll save that for my new tests. Just giving a couple of reasons WHY some choose to use them even WITH a well tuned bow.
09-06-2002, 06:29 AM
#54
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Virginia / West Virginia
Posts: 4,906
RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!
Stealth Force...I will agree that accuracy is more important than head design...shot placement is the most important factor in whether you make a vital hit or not. You could kill a deer with a field point shot through the lungs...no doubt.
As far as tough...I guess that's relative. Tough by mechanical standards...or by fixed head standards????? I think 5 shot has done some very good testing, and the results show that yes there are some good mechanical heads....but there are better fixed heads. Personally I like the Magnus 2 blade 125gr head. I've killed alot of deer with them, and I doubt seriously, any mechanical head would even come close in penetration, and definitley not in strength. I will agree that there are a few mechanical heads that seem to be pretty good heads. But for me, I feel why take the chance of a (mechanical) failure...even if it was only say...1 in 100?? What if that 1 was the biggest buck of your life? Was it worth it? CG's friends (failure) may have been a fluke, but it sounded like it was also a fluke that he actually ended up getting the elk.
As far as the wind factor....I don't think it really is. I've killed deer on very windy days with no problem at all(with magnus heads). Of course all my shots are under 30 yds(most end up being under 20). For a really long shot, yes there may be some affect, but the average hunter won't be taking that shot anyhow, and then you run into the question of whether or not your mechanical head has enough energy to work properly at long range.
I think this debate is like the carbon vs. aluminum debate...it will never go away, and both sides will always stand on what they believe. I guess that's why manufacturers make both style heads.
I guess the thing that bothers me the most about some folks that use mechanical heads, is that they are using them as a "band-aid" to fix a poorly tuned bow. And we all know that happens ALOT!!! Just look at all the threads that pop up here..."my b-heads won't fly...guess I'll just go with mechanicals". What a joke. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
I know alot of folks on this board, that are good archers, and shoot well tuned bows, use mechanicals....and have success. I think that's great, and hey at least they tune their bows, and have enough KE to support using them. I feel that if we are bowhunters, we owe it to ourselves and the game we hunt to learn how to tune our bows, or take it to someone that does and have it done. Then, if you choose to use mechanicals, go for it...at least you'll be getting all your setup has to offer.
But....IMO, if I can get my (fixed)heads to group and fly straight,(and I can...3" @ 30 yds) out of a well tuned bow, I see no advantage to using a mechanical head. I gain nothing but a chance(maybe even very slim, but still a chance) of failure.
As far as tough...I guess that's relative. Tough by mechanical standards...or by fixed head standards????? I think 5 shot has done some very good testing, and the results show that yes there are some good mechanical heads....but there are better fixed heads. Personally I like the Magnus 2 blade 125gr head. I've killed alot of deer with them, and I doubt seriously, any mechanical head would even come close in penetration, and definitley not in strength. I will agree that there are a few mechanical heads that seem to be pretty good heads. But for me, I feel why take the chance of a (mechanical) failure...even if it was only say...1 in 100?? What if that 1 was the biggest buck of your life? Was it worth it? CG's friends (failure) may have been a fluke, but it sounded like it was also a fluke that he actually ended up getting the elk.
As far as the wind factor....I don't think it really is. I've killed deer on very windy days with no problem at all(with magnus heads). Of course all my shots are under 30 yds(most end up being under 20). For a really long shot, yes there may be some affect, but the average hunter won't be taking that shot anyhow, and then you run into the question of whether or not your mechanical head has enough energy to work properly at long range.
I think this debate is like the carbon vs. aluminum debate...it will never go away, and both sides will always stand on what they believe. I guess that's why manufacturers make both style heads.
I guess the thing that bothers me the most about some folks that use mechanical heads, is that they are using them as a "band-aid" to fix a poorly tuned bow. And we all know that happens ALOT!!! Just look at all the threads that pop up here..."my b-heads won't fly...guess I'll just go with mechanicals". What a joke. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
I know alot of folks on this board, that are good archers, and shoot well tuned bows, use mechanicals....and have success. I think that's great, and hey at least they tune their bows, and have enough KE to support using them. I feel that if we are bowhunters, we owe it to ourselves and the game we hunt to learn how to tune our bows, or take it to someone that does and have it done. Then, if you choose to use mechanicals, go for it...at least you'll be getting all your setup has to offer.
But....IMO, if I can get my (fixed)heads to group and fly straight,(and I can...3" @ 30 yds) out of a well tuned bow, I see no advantage to using a mechanical head. I gain nothing but a chance(maybe even very slim, but still a chance) of failure.
09-06-2002, 07:16 PM
#55
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: wi USA
Posts: 233
RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!
5 shot could it be possiable to do a test on bone. i know plywood is not near as hard as bone and the steel drum is not as hard as bone because the steel will give unlike bone which will just break.i know bones even fresh ones are rock hard just a thought
you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine
you can use your pepper spray my 12 gauge with 3 inch slugs works fine
09-07-2002, 01:06 AM
#56
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Sheboygan WI USA
Posts: 255
RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!
I have some stuff I'm testing that seems very close to bone. Basically, a thermoset resin and woodflour. I'll be starting extensive broadhead tests with this stuff when I find the right thickness and perfect my "synthetic steak" 
WV, I agree that the Magnus heads ARE damn tough, I will say that there have been a few tests showing heads like the Rocket 125 as getting even BETTER penetration (I susspect blade surface area is the key here) while being tough as nails...even vs. fixed blade heads.
Nice thick blades like those on the Magnus really do help with the toughness...no doubt, but the tips don't seem to be as efficient at breaking bone (don't hit the shoulder and this point becomes moot) and the large surface area of the blades SEEMS to be something slowing the blades down when they hit the target.
NOTE: I am NOT dissing the Magnus (or ANY head) only suggesting that SOME well built mech heads are more than tough enough for ANY game....and SOME seem to penetrate BETTER...in some tests.
WV, I agree that the Magnus heads ARE damn tough, I will say that there have been a few tests showing heads like the Rocket 125 as getting even BETTER penetration (I susspect blade surface area is the key here) while being tough as nails...even vs. fixed blade heads.
Nice thick blades like those on the Magnus really do help with the toughness...no doubt, but the tips don't seem to be as efficient at breaking bone (don't hit the shoulder and this point becomes moot) and the large surface area of the blades SEEMS to be something slowing the blades down when they hit the target.
NOTE: I am NOT dissing the Magnus (or ANY head) only suggesting that SOME well built mech heads are more than tough enough for ANY game....and SOME seem to penetrate BETTER...in some tests.
09-07-2002, 05:11 PM
#57
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vernon Hills IL USA
Posts: 382
RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!
It is very simple. I keep holding the snyper in one hand and the rocky ti in the other and I keep looking at them. The large amount of damage on the one and the negligible amount on the other... it is very simple.
They need to make the Snyper out of titanium.
They need to make the Snyper out of titanium.
09-07-2002, 05:39 PM
#58
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
While we're at it will someone defined "tuned". There are Olypmic Archers shooting bows that are "tuned" to get the best groups possible. But they are getting one inch tears when you shoot through paper. Well if you are getting one inch tears you may be getting the best groups but you sure aren't getting the best penetration. So by tuned everyone must mean Paper Tuned because I know of no better indication of fish tailing or eratic flight(the keys to penetration). I know of ways to "tweak" groups but no better way of indicating flaws in arrow flight(the paper don't lie). So for my hunting equpment "tuned" means paper tuned and then tuning my arrows and adjusting my sights accordingly. Not tinkering with my rest until my braodheads hit wher my field point do. I don't shoot at deer with field points if they both hit where they are supposed to then that is fine, if they don't then that is fine too, as long as I know my arrows are flying straight and transferring their KE in a straight line through the animal. As opposed to an arrow that is in the middle of a fish tail on impact that hits and turns it's KE into momentum that is transferred into a different direction. That's just what I believe after all of my years of trying and reading and listening. You know what they say confidence is the key<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That paragraph pretty much shows your knowlege of archery.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
When most bowhunters refer to "tuned" , it means tuned to achieve the best arrow flight for maximum penetration.
A competition shooter "tunes" to get maximum accuracy , mostly by group tuning.
Most guys here (not all) , would be shocked to see what kind of paper tears alot of competition shooters have. The ones I know never even paper tune their competition bows , they know what the result would be.
Once again , you really should read everything carefully before spouting off about how I came here and accused anyone of anything. You do realize , that you've pretty much lost any credibility as a knowlegable individual just by your 9th grade rhetoric that seems to show everytime you make a post. Oh yeah , whats with the "babye at the end of your posts (or email , which I'll explain to everyone if needed)? Is that one of those things the teenagers are saying these days as a way of saying , I guess I told you?<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
"It's better to remain silent and appear ignorant than it is to open your mouth and remove all doubt"<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
"Nocked,cocked & ready to rock"
While we're at it will someone defined "tuned". There are Olypmic Archers shooting bows that are "tuned" to get the best groups possible. But they are getting one inch tears when you shoot through paper. Well if you are getting one inch tears you may be getting the best groups but you sure aren't getting the best penetration. So by tuned everyone must mean Paper Tuned because I know of no better indication of fish tailing or eratic flight(the keys to penetration). I know of ways to "tweak" groups but no better way of indicating flaws in arrow flight(the paper don't lie). So for my hunting equpment "tuned" means paper tuned and then tuning my arrows and adjusting my sights accordingly. Not tinkering with my rest until my braodheads hit wher my field point do. I don't shoot at deer with field points if they both hit where they are supposed to then that is fine, if they don't then that is fine too, as long as I know my arrows are flying straight and transferring their KE in a straight line through the animal. As opposed to an arrow that is in the middle of a fish tail on impact that hits and turns it's KE into momentum that is transferred into a different direction. That's just what I believe after all of my years of trying and reading and listening. You know what they say confidence is the key<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Protect your hunting rights, "Spay or neuter a liberal."
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That paragraph pretty much shows your knowlege of archery.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
When most bowhunters refer to "tuned" , it means tuned to achieve the best arrow flight for maximum penetration.
A competition shooter "tunes" to get maximum accuracy , mostly by group tuning.
Most guys here (not all) , would be shocked to see what kind of paper tears alot of competition shooters have. The ones I know never even paper tune their competition bows , they know what the result would be.
Once again , you really should read everything carefully before spouting off about how I came here and accused anyone of anything. You do realize , that you've pretty much lost any credibility as a knowlegable individual just by your 9th grade rhetoric that seems to show everytime you make a post. Oh yeah , whats with the "babye at the end of your posts (or email , which I'll explain to everyone if needed)? Is that one of those things the teenagers are saying these days as a way of saying , I guess I told you?<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
"It's better to remain silent and appear ignorant than it is to open your mouth and remove all doubt"<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
"Nocked,cocked & ready to rock"
09-07-2002, 07:58 PM
#59
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vinton VA
Posts: 2,978
RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!
Buck, you may have something their, titainium snypers! that would address the tip bending, but it would raise the cost. Not a bad idea though.
TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS
TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS
09-09-2002, 06:45 AM
#60
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: hartland wi USA
Posts: 116
RE: Snyper report....NOT GOOD!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That paragraph pretty much shows your knowlege of archery.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
When most bowhunters refer to "tuned" , it means tuned to achieve the best arrow flight for maximum penetration.
A competition shooter "tunes" to get maximum accuracy , mostly by group tuning.
Most guys here (not all) , would be shocked to see what kind of paper tears alot of competition shooters have. The ones I know never even paper tune their competition bows , they know what the result would be.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> One thing that bothers me when guys bring up the fact that competition shooters dont paper tune, or they shoot great with big tears is that they ARE NOT SHOOTING BROADHEADS! the law of physics will tell you that in a broadhead situation your arrows will benifit by flying as straight as possible as soon as possible. Paper tuning isnt everything, but its a great tool, and great place to start if you notice poor arrow flight. Why mess around blindly if you see poor arrow flight when you can shoot through a paper and see whats going on first.
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
That paragraph pretty much shows your knowlege of archery.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
When most bowhunters refer to "tuned" , it means tuned to achieve the best arrow flight for maximum penetration.
A competition shooter "tunes" to get maximum accuracy , mostly by group tuning.
Most guys here (not all) , would be shocked to see what kind of paper tears alot of competition shooters have. The ones I know never even paper tune their competition bows , they know what the result would be.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote> One thing that bothers me when guys bring up the fact that competition shooters dont paper tune, or they shoot great with big tears is that they ARE NOT SHOOTING BROADHEADS! the law of physics will tell you that in a broadhead situation your arrows will benifit by flying as straight as possible as soon as possible. Paper tuning isnt everything, but its a great tool, and great place to start if you notice poor arrow flight. Why mess around blindly if you see poor arrow flight when you can shoot through a paper and see whats going on first.