WV Hunter

CG...I'm glad your buddy got the elk. It could have been alot worse.

I still can't understand....if you can get a fixed head to fly good out of a well tuned bow,(and you CAN), WHY would you use a mechanical head?????
I see no advantages at all. I realize they works for alot of folks, and it could have been a fluke...or whatever, but I just don't understand why anyone would want to take a chance of that happening...ever.....no matter what the cause is.

just my opinion.

silentassassin

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I think you are taking this a wee bit out of context.

What some of us are implying is that the poor penetration might have been related to low amounts of KE, and the head disintegration related to something else (either a design flaw, or a fluke) despite the aforementioned poor penetration, not because of it.

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Or maybe I am not taking it out of context and the head disentegration IS what caused the poor penetration. It never fails when someone comes here and tells about a mechanical head failing, someone that shoots that head comes to it's defense by accusing the shooter of having a bow that is &quot;untuned&quot; eventhough they have no idea who the person is or how well there bow is tuned. I have had #$@# poor penetration from mechanicals and I don't have marginal KE or a poorly tuned bow. Hell, I have set up 500 bows(must have learned something) I have had penetration problems with Spitfires with perfectly broadside shots not going in but 6 inches or so and I know just like I know the sun will come up tomorrow, that my bow was tuned. So I am just saying that there is not always another perspective or a spin on things.
Maybe and I know this is tough for some of you but just maybe the head just failed. I think the one thing that most of the KE arguments have produced is an agreement that broadhead choice is one of the most important factors in penetration. If your broadhead fails it really doesn't matter how much KE you have you aren't going to get good penetration.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;

JeffB

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I think you are taking this a wee bit out of context.

What some of us are implying is that the poor penetration might have been related to low amounts of KE, and the head disintegration related to something else (either a design flaw, or a fluke) despite the aforementioned poor penetration, not because of it.

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Or maybe I am not taking it out of context and the head disentegration IS what caused the poor penetration. It never fails when someone comes here and tells about a mechanical head failing, someone that shoots that head comes to it's defense by accusing the shooter of having a bow that is &quot;untuned&quot; eventhough they have no idea who the person is or how well there bow is tuned. I have had #$@# poor penetration from mechanicals and I don't have marginal KE or a poorly tuned bow. Hell, I have set up 500 bows(must have learned something) I have had penetration problems with Spitfires with perfectly broadside shots not going in but 6 inches or so and I know just like I know the sun will come up tomorrow, that my bow was tuned. So I am just saying that there is not always another perspective or a spin on things.
Maybe and I know this is tough for some of you but just maybe the head just failed. I think the one thing that most of the KE arguments have produced is an agreement that broadhead choice is one of the most important factors in penetration. If your broadhead fails it really doesn't matter how much KE you have you aren't going to get good penetration.

Protect your hunting rights, &quot;Spay or neuter a liberal.&quot;
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Whoaah..easy there my friend…No reason to get your knickers in a twist.

I understand what you are saying, and it’s quite possible the reason for the poor penetration was the failure, but It’s not any more viable a scenario than the scenario that I and some other’s presented ..at least with the facts as we have them.

I’m not defending the Snyper because I shoot them, in fact I’m not “defending” them at all; it should not have failed, period (as I said in my first post). Nor am I accusing anyone of bashing the product or shooter (I didn’t say that, at least). I’m just saying that with facts as we have them, the reasons for the failure and the poor penetration COULD very well be a separate matter; no more…no less. I don’t think that I’m “putting a different spin” on it, just for the sake of doing so (as you imply); it’s simply a reasonable deduction to make that different scenarios could very well have occurred when we are not presented with all the facts or the facts are unclear. Neither of us (nor anyone else here) are in any position to declare outright that our conclusion is fact, to do so would be ignorant.

While I did not make the comments regarding poorly tuned bows, I understand the reasoning people have. I think the truth of the matter in these cases actually revolves around the tuning of the shooter, and not the equipment. By this I mean that your bow can shoot perfect bullet holes all day long, and the archer can goof up the arrow flight by inducing torque due to nerves, trigger punching or whatnot under hunting conditions (hence leading to poor arrow flight which is the mech’s biggest bane to reducing penetration).

Now as to your comments regarding other brand mechs not working well despite high KE and proper tuning, I absolutely agree, ESPECIALLY regarding the Spitfires. While it’s a rugged design, I have seen too many instances of poor penetration from these heads (regardless of KE or tuning) to think that poor penetration has just been a fluke.


Oh, BTW, if numbers of bows set-up determine legitimacy in this discussion then do not bother replying, I’ve got you beat already my friend <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Cheerio,

JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

CG

BOWFANATIC,
I assure you that I am not trying to trick anyone here......arrow flight was perfect and shot placement was perfect. The head simply came apart not other variables other than a flaw in construction or design could have had a part to play. The elk was perfectly broadside with no angle. I'm not trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes. I just thought everyone should hear what happened. If you don't beleive me than don't but please don't insinuate that I'm trying to be deceitful. If that was not how your post read than I am sorry.

Buckfevr,
The break was clean with no bending.

I don't see how penetration could be an issue. I'm sure a broadhead with a tip will out penetrate a BH with essentially a blunt tip. Is there any question that if the tip had remained intact that penetration would have been better? I'm sure that it takes quite a bit of energy to break a ferrule in half.

&quot;What we do in this life echos an eternity&quot;

PABowhntr

Wow, this thread went in a direction I totally did not expect. <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>

Let me go on to say that regardless of whether the incident occurred because of a fluke in the design or because of some previously preventable factor I still would recommend the Snypers as one of the best expandable designs out there.

I do sincerely hope that a situation such as the one with your friend does not happen again.

silentassassin

<font color=red>SA, sorry, I had to delete for skirting the profanity filter. That's why the filter is there.</font id=red>

<font size=1>Also, know that I'm not singling you out. I always edit posts that skirt the filter. It's what I do. I did this to a member a couple weeks ago, turns out he is a real loser and sent me hateful threatening emails. He's banned, we didn't need him around. I didn't single him out either. I hope you don't take it personal, I enjoy your posts, we just can't have the filter skirted. Thanks for your cooperation. </font id=size1> Rob

Edited by - Rob/PA Bowyer on 09/04/2002 22:24:32

JeffB

SA,

It's quite apparent you are a a bit hostile about the matter, at least that is what I'm &quot;reading&quot; in your posts. I don't think I'm alone here in that matter, but perhaps I am.

Secondly you inferred that some people were saying &quot;X&quot;, and made it clear you didn't like it when people said &quot;X&quot;...I'm simply explaining that I did not say &quot;X&quot;..I said &quot;Y&quot;. That is called clarification, which I felt neccesary since you made no clear distinction as to whom you were talking to.

You also apparently didn't see the winking smiley face after my &quot;#'s of bows&quot; comment...

Hint: winking smiley face = &quot;I'm joking&quot; or &quot;I'm kidding&quot;

And with that I'll bow out now since it seems no reasonable discussion is not going to take place on the subject at hand.

Cheerio

JeffB

c903

OK, who has the stick!!!?

Edited by - c903 on 09/04/2002 13:04:24

dwcp99

5 Shot makes an excellent point. You don't know when the head broke. I shot a 900 lb. 5x5 elk 2 yrs. ago with a muzzy 4 blade - 90 grain. The broadhead was trashed after finding it in the elk - all blades gone with the tip broken off... I'm fairly sure the broadhead broke apart when the elk was sliding down the steep moutain side and not upon impact. Regardless the muzzy didn't do much better with more KE then it sounds like was used with the mechanical in this thread... The shot was very close, about 8 yards.

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CG, thank you for the information. As to what happend I don't have a clue, but that is one of the main reasons I don't recomend anyone use mechanical heads on animals larger than deer. The KE of the arrow was a factor for sure, but the heads should not have buckled under the pressure. Now one thing to keep in mind is that we really don't know when the head broke, before or after the elk fell on it? I think we all tend to asume that it happend prior to the elk falling, thus the poor penetration, but with a low KE level and an untuned bow could also be the problem. I don't know if your friends bow was tuned or not, and I know the tip can curl up on the snypers if you hit somting really hard that won't give any, like a rock( I had that happen after penetrating fully through a deer). Again I still really like the snypers but not for elk. They are not perfect, but better than most mechanicals. The Steel heads ferule is stronger, but the snypers blades are stronger. I would also suggest you send the head to Bruce Barrie and Barrie archery. I know he will want to take a look at the head, and will be intrested in your story.

TAKE YOUR KIDS HUNTING AND YOU WON'T BE HUNTING FOR YOUR KIDS
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CG

dwcp99,
The arrow shaft was lodged in the rib. So unless the tip worked it's way through the middle of the shaft, it happened before the arrow entered the elk.

&quot;What we do in this life echos an eternity&quot;