Bigpapascout

for the record I have both AA and TAP on my computer but I dont totally go by the data on either program because they arent always right either.
U use a good old fashoned method of trial and error which usually works best for me so that I may gather my own data.

TFOX

I have only had to vary once from AA to get a bow to tune and trust me when I say the bow was at fault.Eventat bow only required 3 sizes up if memory serves.


I quess the arrow manufactuers need to just make one really stiff arrow for all of of us,that seems to be what you are saying.


The question is can you get too stiff and the answer is yes.It is true that with todays equipment there is MUCH MORE room for error but you can still get too stiff.



Every bow/shooter style/will have a different line in the sand to what is too stiff.

What I am saying is that an arrow that is too stiff will not be able to utilize it's spine if the bow is not producing enough energy.


Will a piece of rebar absorb the energy a bow puts out? NO Or mabe it would be more correct to say it will absorb all of it and still be wanting more.Just a different way of looking at it. Maybe my terminology is off?

I am thinking of absorbing as using.


I too have my daughter shooting way stiff arrows but I can say with confidence that they are too stiff.I will be replacing them soon with arrows that are still too stiff but they will be closer to right.Atleast I will be able to get a decent tune for her and a good weight to hunt with.It is about compromise.

DaveC

That's about what I figured. Thanks for the help guys.
I have been through and through this bow moving everything possible- up and down in and out . I had a pro shop look at it and they said I had everything right. Finally (due to seasons approach) I went w/ broadheads that shoot true for me.
You know, the ones that claim to shoot like field points-(which both do).
Not sure why my rig won't shoot the phantoms I prefer, I figure I'll mess with it more after season.
The stingers and slick tricks are flying true, w/ arrow nocks pointing straight back at me when in the target from varying distances, so that's what I'm using for now.

I know it's a simple solution, but I can't figure it out. Thanks again.

Bigpapascout

evidently you have only read what you dont agree with

I also shoot a 60 inch wide limb Native American style long bow pulling 55 pounds at 28inch draw with a finger tab which requires a properly spined shaft.

now you are begenning to look at it correctly but still does not change the fact that an arrow as you put it too stiff will fly true from a properly set up bow the only thing will change is the increased drop in trajectory due to weight and reduction in speed
same counts for your rebar senario it may not travel but 10 feet before it hits the ground but it will travel in a strait line provided it has a certain amount of FOC and drag on the back.

Bigpapascout

DaveC if my memory serves me correctly those have a wide cut diamiter I tried them once and could not get them to fly worth a flip so I trashed them

does your arrows have strait fletch or do they have some offset to them?
did you spin test the arrows to see if the insert was installed strait? these could be some things you mayneed to look at.

Len in Maryland

What it really amounts to is that the better the nock travel, the better the bow tuning, and the better the archer, the broader capability of spine selection.

One of my novice technicians was working on a bow tune the other day and told me that he couldn't get a particular spine to work. He told me that it was too weak a spine because of the tear he was getting. I asked him how he knew that and he quoted the Easton Tuning Guide. I proceeded to show him a few tricks and the arrow tuned perfectly. I told him that the ETG was a good reference, but that it was ONLY a reference. I showed him how other considerations have to be addressed to properly tune a bow.

A lot of good information has been given; but, as usual, the variances far outweigh what can be explained on this or any other forum. To answer the question of this thread - yes, an arrow can have too stiff a spine.

TFOX

I do agree that the Easton guide is only a reference and there are many variables to any setup but to say you can't have a spine that is too stiff is completely untrue.



You see indoor shooters shooting way overspined arrows all the time BUT they put extremely heavy points in their arrows to bring the dynamic spine down to a manigable point.They also are shooting indoor with no outdoor variables,along with not trying to penetrate an animal.Oh yeah,they are only shooting 20 yards(along with near perfect form),when those same shooters go shooting at Atlanta,you can bet their setups are much closer to correct,where spine is concerned.



I also completely agree with your first paragraph Len.But at some point,too much is too much.

DaveC

Bigpapascout,
Yes the Phantoms are big, which is why I would like to use them. I had them shooting awesome out of my last years rig (02 mighty-mite) with the same arrows.
I cut 1/2" off the arrows to accommodate my 1/2" reduction in draw length- might had been a bad move.
My arrows are helical fletched with an Arizona e-z fletched & 4" duravanes. The phantoms are spinning true on the arrows I try them on, they just won't pattern. I did get one to hit bull at 30 by using it on a 340 that was fletched with blazers (it's in my quiver). I thought that was my answer (and still maybe) but I refletched another arrow with blazers and the shotgun pattern reappeared. I had just refletched all of my 18-340's with new duravanes so I wasn't to ready to strip them all in hopes the blazers were my answer.

Once season winds down and these boards get slow again I 'll revisit what's going on. Maybe going back to a fixed rest is my answer (arrow needing more guidance?)
As for now it's stingers and slick tricks for me.
The slick tricks have the same size cut as the phantoms, so who knows- once I draw blood with them I may prefer them anyways .

Thanks for the help.

BobCo19-65

Hey Len, how about giving us a few of the tricks.

Bigpapascout

well I am not len but here goes

reducing point weight.
cutting the arrow down.
more fletch on the back to create more drag.
proper spring tension on the rest.
fallaways need to start dropping at least 3 inches from when the arrow is released.
proper tiller adjustment.
make sure the cams are in time (2 cam).
make sure a single cam is not over rotated.
Nocking point is in the correct location.
arrow sets on the rest as close to the center line between the axles without sacraficing shelf clearance.
Zero fletch contact.

OK Len did I miss any thing?[8D]