Another boring report – No-Peep
03-07-2002, 11:51 AM
#21
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 520
RE: Another boring report – No-Peep
BF - It is exactly that kind of quick look I am talking about. That isn't a good practice in my view. But you are welcome to do so if you wish.
I understand it shows hand torque which a peep doesn't which is why I said:
"If you are new to torque, this thing may be neat, but if you already know about that... Also just twisting your hand back won't help, you need a neutral position for the hand, once you have it, you don't need an NP to maintain it."
I just don't find this useful, or something I would want to have pointed out to me while I was hunting or target shooting. I mean you notice you have hand torque, if you have ever shot a long stabilizer, or just worked on your form this isn't news. What do you do about it? I worked on form until it isn't there to be seen. I don't want to keep torquing the bow looking at my NP. Under the presure of full draw (such as it is) what do you do about torque, the only correct answer is let down, which is why I choose to deal with it before the draw starts.
"As long as you have a consistent anchor, the string alignment should take care of itself. Riser torqueing has more of an affect on accuracy- and you can't see that with a conventional peep".- BF
First, where is the evidence riser torque has more effect than poor anchor? Every system has the vices of its virtues as the saying goes. I do think a person who has worked on the anchor for ever and a day, and moves to the NP may find it useful, but if you were starting from scratch without good habits in either area, I don't see the evidence one is more important than the other.
BF:
Obviously the market for hunting is much bigger than for target, but is the NP mostly for hunting? I think they claim it is just as good for alignment as a peep. That might even be true, but it isn't just as good for shooting as a peep, as far as I am concerned. Anyway what do you mean when you say for "hunting". What's wrong with it that you can't use it for target just as well?
I agree with you about low light. I am on record around here saying that I don't hunt in the dark but mostly midday in the winter (I can't hunt these days but that is what my experience is based on)not everyone's conditions are the same.
I am not trying to change minds here, PAB asked whether there were any negative coments, and I know a few. I tried to present both sides of any negatives. Others have already answered the positives side
I understand it shows hand torque which a peep doesn't which is why I said:
"If you are new to torque, this thing may be neat, but if you already know about that... Also just twisting your hand back won't help, you need a neutral position for the hand, once you have it, you don't need an NP to maintain it."
I just don't find this useful, or something I would want to have pointed out to me while I was hunting or target shooting. I mean you notice you have hand torque, if you have ever shot a long stabilizer, or just worked on your form this isn't news. What do you do about it? I worked on form until it isn't there to be seen. I don't want to keep torquing the bow looking at my NP. Under the presure of full draw (such as it is) what do you do about torque, the only correct answer is let down, which is why I choose to deal with it before the draw starts.
"As long as you have a consistent anchor, the string alignment should take care of itself. Riser torqueing has more of an affect on accuracy- and you can't see that with a conventional peep".- BF
First, where is the evidence riser torque has more effect than poor anchor? Every system has the vices of its virtues as the saying goes. I do think a person who has worked on the anchor for ever and a day, and moves to the NP may find it useful, but if you were starting from scratch without good habits in either area, I don't see the evidence one is more important than the other.
BF:
Obviously the market for hunting is much bigger than for target, but is the NP mostly for hunting? I think they claim it is just as good for alignment as a peep. That might even be true, but it isn't just as good for shooting as a peep, as far as I am concerned. Anyway what do you mean when you say for "hunting". What's wrong with it that you can't use it for target just as well?
I agree with you about low light. I am on record around here saying that I don't hunt in the dark but mostly midday in the winter (I can't hunt these days but that is what my experience is based on)not everyone's conditions are the same.
I am not trying to change minds here, PAB asked whether there were any negative coments, and I know a few. I tried to present both sides of any negatives. Others have already answered the positives side
03-07-2002, 12:44 PM
#22
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Another boring report – No-Peep
Ossage- Looks like you did not carefully read my comment.
Once you get used to the NP, peripheral vision let's you keep your eye on target while still being able to do a quick check of the NP alignment.
That is not a "quick look"- using peripheral vision (by definition) means NOT taking your eyes off the target.
I'm glad for you that you don't find a very sensative torque indicator (like the NP) useful. More power to you. I know that when shooting in odd positions from a treestand, it is very easy for your form to deteriorate. Add in some buck fever, and low light.
"First, where is the evidence riser torque has more effect than poor anchor?" When did I say anything about a poor anchor?!? Did you read my post?: As long as you have a consistent anchor, the string alignment should take care of itself.
When torquing a riser, you set two things in motion. The pins extended out on the sight bar, and the arrow rest contact point with the arrow. The catch is that if that contact point is ANYWHERE behind the pivot point of the bow (deepest part of the grip), the direction of movement of this conatct point is in the OPPOSITE direction of the sight pins. If you torque the bow to the right, the pins go right, but the arrow direction on the rest goes left! There aren't too many rests that position the contact point DIRECTLY over the pivot point. Bodoodles (I love 'em) have almost a 1" overdraw.
Yes, the NP is mostly for hunting. That's part of the huge advantage- better low light seeing ability, and form alignment from hunting positions.
"I think they claim it is just as good for alignment as a peep." Most "hunting peeps" are rather large in diameter for light gathering. And in that case, yes, the NP is much better for aligment than some of these huge peeps. And you can use it for target, but having a lens might bump you up into the FS class. I've heard that some places called the NP illegal for BH class because it uses a lens.
I've used it for target and did quite well with it. I have found that indoor flourescent glare can be a drawback without a hood on it. But since I find that it's primary advantage is for hunting situations, that's where I use it most.
I'll still keep my 1/32" micro peep for target, along with my 3rd axis leveling Sure-Loc and scope. But my hunting bow wouldn't be without the No-Peep.
Once you get used to the NP, peripheral vision let's you keep your eye on target while still being able to do a quick check of the NP alignment.
That is not a "quick look"- using peripheral vision (by definition) means NOT taking your eyes off the target.
I'm glad for you that you don't find a very sensative torque indicator (like the NP) useful. More power to you. I know that when shooting in odd positions from a treestand, it is very easy for your form to deteriorate. Add in some buck fever, and low light.
"First, where is the evidence riser torque has more effect than poor anchor?" When did I say anything about a poor anchor?!? Did you read my post?: As long as you have a consistent anchor, the string alignment should take care of itself.
When torquing a riser, you set two things in motion. The pins extended out on the sight bar, and the arrow rest contact point with the arrow. The catch is that if that contact point is ANYWHERE behind the pivot point of the bow (deepest part of the grip), the direction of movement of this conatct point is in the OPPOSITE direction of the sight pins. If you torque the bow to the right, the pins go right, but the arrow direction on the rest goes left! There aren't too many rests that position the contact point DIRECTLY over the pivot point. Bodoodles (I love 'em) have almost a 1" overdraw.
Yes, the NP is mostly for hunting. That's part of the huge advantage- better low light seeing ability, and form alignment from hunting positions.
"I think they claim it is just as good for alignment as a peep." Most "hunting peeps" are rather large in diameter for light gathering. And in that case, yes, the NP is much better for aligment than some of these huge peeps. And you can use it for target, but having a lens might bump you up into the FS class. I've heard that some places called the NP illegal for BH class because it uses a lens.
I've used it for target and did quite well with it. I have found that indoor flourescent glare can be a drawback without a hood on it. But since I find that it's primary advantage is for hunting situations, that's where I use it most.
I'll still keep my 1/32" micro peep for target, along with my 3rd axis leveling Sure-Loc and scope. But my hunting bow wouldn't be without the No-Peep.
03-07-2002, 02:29 PM
#25
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 520
RE: Another boring report – No-Peep
BF two serious questions:
1) If you see in your peripheral vision that your riser isn't aligned, what do you do about it? Is the correction subconscious, something that just happens, or does the thought "I'm torquing" cross your mind. I think in my case it would have to be a conscious thing, in which case I just can't use it. I am not saying I'm so special I don't need that info if it was available, I am saying I can't process it. One key general factor for top shooters (not me, but I keep trying) is one thought in mind. For some it is aiming, others think only of form, etc... If I am aiming, I can't be thinking of anything else.
2) If you find out you are torquing, what do you do about it? As far as I am concerned its too late then to start fooling with my hand at that point. I honestly have no idea what I would do during that shot sequence with the information.
1) If you see in your peripheral vision that your riser isn't aligned, what do you do about it? Is the correction subconscious, something that just happens, or does the thought "I'm torquing" cross your mind. I think in my case it would have to be a conscious thing, in which case I just can't use it. I am not saying I'm so special I don't need that info if it was available, I am saying I can't process it. One key general factor for top shooters (not me, but I keep trying) is one thought in mind. For some it is aiming, others think only of form, etc... If I am aiming, I can't be thinking of anything else.
2) If you find out you are torquing, what do you do about it? As far as I am concerned its too late then to start fooling with my hand at that point. I honestly have no idea what I would do during that shot sequence with the information.
03-07-2002, 03:01 PM
#27
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Another boring report – No-Peep
Ossage,
Again, this is a hunting device for the most part- and that is its use to me. The NP does not have to be "dead nuts" centered to shoot good groups. And in a hunting situation out to 25yds, 1-2" point of impact difference doesn't mean much to me if my NP is not perfectly lined up. You can have the dot off a bit and still be 3-4" on target out to 30yds.
This is not like shooting baby-X's on a Vegas face where that 1" change is going to put you down on the rankings.
If I notice the NP is not within my tolerances for a green light shot, then from using it for soooo long now it is second nature to me for the adjustment. And generally the only time for adjustment is shooting downward from an elevated position- and from not fully bending at the waist. The NP really shines in that instance. You hear of SO many people hitting high when shooting downward angles, and that can come from form deterioration and by just dropping the bow arm instead of bending at the waist.
Yes, for top shooters the "one thought in mind" is neccessary for intense target settings where pressure can get the best of you, and that 1/2" difference on the target face can mean a 1st place victory or a 5 place rank. But when bowhunting, I have a different thought process- line up the shot, make sure no branches or twigs are in the way, pick a spot and pulllllll. There is huge differences in shot sequence for me between a target and bowhunting scenario. I'm not sure I even have a shot sequence for bowhunting. "Make it work with the conditions you're in", that's pretty much it.
My target shot sequence would absolutely NOT work in a hunting situation- it's all out the window at that point. I can't place my feet absolutely perfectly on the line. I may not be able to have my whole body perpendicular to target. I may have to throw back a draw VERY quickly if the window of opportunity is short. I may have to hold for much longer than usual if a shot doesn't present itself. I may have to shoot very quickly. Etc..... There's no way my shot sequence would let me do things "as normal".
Again, this is a hunting device for the most part- and that is its use to me. The NP does not have to be "dead nuts" centered to shoot good groups. And in a hunting situation out to 25yds, 1-2" point of impact difference doesn't mean much to me if my NP is not perfectly lined up. You can have the dot off a bit and still be 3-4" on target out to 30yds.
This is not like shooting baby-X's on a Vegas face where that 1" change is going to put you down on the rankings.
If I notice the NP is not within my tolerances for a green light shot, then from using it for soooo long now it is second nature to me for the adjustment. And generally the only time for adjustment is shooting downward from an elevated position- and from not fully bending at the waist. The NP really shines in that instance. You hear of SO many people hitting high when shooting downward angles, and that can come from form deterioration and by just dropping the bow arm instead of bending at the waist.
Yes, for top shooters the "one thought in mind" is neccessary for intense target settings where pressure can get the best of you, and that 1/2" difference on the target face can mean a 1st place victory or a 5 place rank. But when bowhunting, I have a different thought process- line up the shot, make sure no branches or twigs are in the way, pick a spot and pulllllll. There is huge differences in shot sequence for me between a target and bowhunting scenario. I'm not sure I even have a shot sequence for bowhunting. "Make it work with the conditions you're in", that's pretty much it.
My target shot sequence would absolutely NOT work in a hunting situation- it's all out the window at that point. I can't place my feet absolutely perfectly on the line. I may not be able to have my whole body perpendicular to target. I may have to throw back a draw VERY quickly if the window of opportunity is short. I may have to hold for much longer than usual if a shot doesn't present itself. I may have to shoot very quickly. Etc..... There's no way my shot sequence would let me do things "as normal".
03-07-2002, 03:11 PM
#29
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Another boring report – No-Peep
Ossage,
Since I've put many hundreds of shots through my bow with the NP attached, I'll take a stab at your last question.
At first, when the NP was new to me, and I saw that the bubble was off, it took thought and effort on my part to figure out how to bring it back in proper alignment. After a lot of practice, it became a subconscious adjustment. If you bring your bow to your eye and the sight pin isn't centered in your string peep, you don't have to think about how to get it centered. You do it naturally. Same with the NP after the adjustments become ingrained in your mind. It's usually, just a fraction of millimeter adjustment on your anchor or a slightly different pressure where the grip hits. My experience is that it's easy to do and very helpful. I shoot better with it than a large string peep and I wouldn't even consider a small peep for hunting. I wouldn't care how bright the lighting. Small peeps block your view and make it difficult to pinpoint your target area.
The other thing is, that it's not the kind of product you regret buying. It's small, unobtrusive, light weight and not something you worry about having on your bow if you decide not to use it.
Since I've put many hundreds of shots through my bow with the NP attached, I'll take a stab at your last question.
At first, when the NP was new to me, and I saw that the bubble was off, it took thought and effort on my part to figure out how to bring it back in proper alignment. After a lot of practice, it became a subconscious adjustment. If you bring your bow to your eye and the sight pin isn't centered in your string peep, you don't have to think about how to get it centered. You do it naturally. Same with the NP after the adjustments become ingrained in your mind. It's usually, just a fraction of millimeter adjustment on your anchor or a slightly different pressure where the grip hits. My experience is that it's easy to do and very helpful. I shoot better with it than a large string peep and I wouldn't even consider a small peep for hunting. I wouldn't care how bright the lighting. Small peeps block your view and make it difficult to pinpoint your target area.
The other thing is, that it's not the kind of product you regret buying. It's small, unobtrusive, light weight and not something you worry about having on your bow if you decide not to use it.
03-07-2002, 04:21 PM
#30
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Another boring report – No-Peep
And not to mention peep rotation in different temperature ranges. If you use a peep that doesn't have the rubber tubing, temp differences can sometimes make for a rotated peep at the worst possible time. One less thing to worry about. AND you pick up a few extra fps by not having the extra weight of a peep and tubing on your string. Free speed.
I really don't even bother with the level on the NP. Out to 25-30yds it ain't gonna make a big deal of difference if the bow is tipped a tad for bowhunting. How accurate is that $.30 level going to be (that's glued in) anyway? Maybe for consistent holding, but for accurate leveling......hmmmmm. In fact, the level fell off of one of my NP's last year. I didn't bother to put it back on. The alignment feature of the NP is far more important than be a half-bubble off.
Just my thoughts-
Edited by - Black Frog on 03/07/2002 17:31:37
I really don't even bother with the level on the NP. Out to 25-30yds it ain't gonna make a big deal of difference if the bow is tipped a tad for bowhunting. How accurate is that $.30 level going to be (that's glued in) anyway? Maybe for consistent holding, but for accurate leveling......hmmmmm. In fact, the level fell off of one of my NP's last year. I didn't bother to put it back on. The alignment feature of the NP is far more important than be a half-bubble off.
Just my thoughts-
Edited by - Black Frog on 03/07/2002 17:31:37