What makes a 3D bow great?
03-05-2002, 02:30 PM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Sorry for the little outburst last night folks…I had intended to run with it a bit further, but..well I don’t know..I don’t feel like it…. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Back to the subject at hand.
There is no doubt in my mind that the 2 cam design is more “tune-able”, in this regard I have to agree with Pinwheel. At the same time NorthJeff lays out the bottom line about the whole situation: the results in real life, not in the shooting machine or on the drawing pad.
AFAIC, one cam designs have come such a long way that I’m not sure it matters that much anymore on paper or in design. I think the mental aspect is more important (what you have more confidence in), what you are used to, and what features from each design benefit each individual.
Myself, I tend to find more confidence in the “ whole package”, rather than just one aspect (like what kind of cam design it sports). I’ve had both styles that shot great, and both styles that shot poorly. From a personal standpoint I can bring up the Darton CPS. In my humble opinion this is the best cam design out there as of yet. But Darton just doesn’t make a bow that “clicks” with me otherwise. I love the way the cam draws, how adjustable it is, the level nock travel, the efficiency, etc. But I like very little otherwise from a feel standpoint. They are some of the finest built bows out there, but they just don’t feel right for me. It’s the same with Merlin.
Getting used to something is a big part of it too. It took me nearly 9 years to FINALLY get used to one-cam bows. I shot them on and off from 1992-1998. In 1998 I started to shoot the one-cam pretty much exclusively, and I still didn’t start getting REALLY comfortable with them until about late 2000. Some folks won’t take so long. But honestly, I’ve become so used to their quirks and idiosyncrasies, that I’m sure I’d have a devil of a time getting used to a 2 cam design again. In 2000, I tried switching back, and just gave up: I didn’t WANT to learn all over again. I’d rather just shoot and have some fun. While I would still buy a two-cam bow if the right one came along, It would be purely for “jollies”, unless it was some kind of “revelation” in my accuracy.
Features: That’s a big issue as well, that is overlooked. I match my equipment to my deficiencies as a shooter as well as my lifestyle. I’m not a very steady aiming individual: I’m sort of a nervous Nellie (thanx for THAT gene, mom), so I tend to bounce around more than average. A steady aiming one-cam bow is a big help as long as it has some mass weight, and good balance. Sure, I can spend hours tiller, and synch tuning a two-cam bow to get it to hold steady too, but I don’t have the luxury of time anymore: I don’t spend all day working in a shop. I have a family now that takes up most of my free time, and I have a hectic job. When I DO have time to fool around with my bows, I want to practice. The one-cam fits me perfectly in this regard as I’ve become familiar enough with the design over the years to get them shooting pretty good from the beginning, and with my current choice in brands I’ve had virtually NO tuning issues since initial set-up. Of course strings and cables have come a long way, and there’s not much hassle with either design these days, but the two-cam demands more time for my own personal needs, without much difference if any, in end results.
We can argue all day long about how well limbs fit, tolerances, level nock travel, draw stops, and what not till we turn blue in the face (and I’m just as guilty, if not MORE, than most).
Some folks can’t get the results they want w/ X, so they pick Y. Others get the same results with X as the others do Y…whoop-dee-do.
The results are what matters, not how you get there.
JeffB
Back to the subject at hand.
There is no doubt in my mind that the 2 cam design is more “tune-able”, in this regard I have to agree with Pinwheel. At the same time NorthJeff lays out the bottom line about the whole situation: the results in real life, not in the shooting machine or on the drawing pad.
AFAIC, one cam designs have come such a long way that I’m not sure it matters that much anymore on paper or in design. I think the mental aspect is more important (what you have more confidence in), what you are used to, and what features from each design benefit each individual.
Myself, I tend to find more confidence in the “ whole package”, rather than just one aspect (like what kind of cam design it sports). I’ve had both styles that shot great, and both styles that shot poorly. From a personal standpoint I can bring up the Darton CPS. In my humble opinion this is the best cam design out there as of yet. But Darton just doesn’t make a bow that “clicks” with me otherwise. I love the way the cam draws, how adjustable it is, the level nock travel, the efficiency, etc. But I like very little otherwise from a feel standpoint. They are some of the finest built bows out there, but they just don’t feel right for me. It’s the same with Merlin.
Getting used to something is a big part of it too. It took me nearly 9 years to FINALLY get used to one-cam bows. I shot them on and off from 1992-1998. In 1998 I started to shoot the one-cam pretty much exclusively, and I still didn’t start getting REALLY comfortable with them until about late 2000. Some folks won’t take so long. But honestly, I’ve become so used to their quirks and idiosyncrasies, that I’m sure I’d have a devil of a time getting used to a 2 cam design again. In 2000, I tried switching back, and just gave up: I didn’t WANT to learn all over again. I’d rather just shoot and have some fun. While I would still buy a two-cam bow if the right one came along, It would be purely for “jollies”, unless it was some kind of “revelation” in my accuracy.
Features: That’s a big issue as well, that is overlooked. I match my equipment to my deficiencies as a shooter as well as my lifestyle. I’m not a very steady aiming individual: I’m sort of a nervous Nellie (thanx for THAT gene, mom), so I tend to bounce around more than average. A steady aiming one-cam bow is a big help as long as it has some mass weight, and good balance. Sure, I can spend hours tiller, and synch tuning a two-cam bow to get it to hold steady too, but I don’t have the luxury of time anymore: I don’t spend all day working in a shop. I have a family now that takes up most of my free time, and I have a hectic job. When I DO have time to fool around with my bows, I want to practice. The one-cam fits me perfectly in this regard as I’ve become familiar enough with the design over the years to get them shooting pretty good from the beginning, and with my current choice in brands I’ve had virtually NO tuning issues since initial set-up. Of course strings and cables have come a long way, and there’s not much hassle with either design these days, but the two-cam demands more time for my own personal needs, without much difference if any, in end results.
We can argue all day long about how well limbs fit, tolerances, level nock travel, draw stops, and what not till we turn blue in the face (and I’m just as guilty, if not MORE, than most).
Some folks can’t get the results they want w/ X, so they pick Y. Others get the same results with X as the others do Y…whoop-dee-do.
The results are what matters, not how you get there.
JeffB
03-05-2002, 02:32 PM
#42
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Straightarrow--
Of course it can be done with a Hooter, and has been. That is why the reports and articles, and well-known techs, state that there is a difference. Tests do not lie, bottom line.
FITA, IFAA, and other International events are not currently dominated by solos, and neither is any other format other than 3D, regardless of a win or two here and there. Technical facts do not lie, no matter what an individual thinks about a product, their personal experience, how many Pros win with a product, or how much loyalty he/she has. Can anyone win with a solo? Of course, it all depends on the individuals' preference, comfort, and amount of time put into it. Are they better overall than twins? Not in my opinion, but I guess that is up to each individual to decide for themselves. My advice is to not listen to either Jeff OR myself,<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> but rather to read the reports and articles by some of todays' top techs and archers on this issue. OR, simply decide for yourself. Best thing is to just go shoot and have fun, whatever your preference! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Of course it can be done with a Hooter, and has been. That is why the reports and articles, and well-known techs, state that there is a difference. Tests do not lie, bottom line.
FITA, IFAA, and other International events are not currently dominated by solos, and neither is any other format other than 3D, regardless of a win or two here and there. Technical facts do not lie, no matter what an individual thinks about a product, their personal experience, how many Pros win with a product, or how much loyalty he/she has. Can anyone win with a solo? Of course, it all depends on the individuals' preference, comfort, and amount of time put into it. Are they better overall than twins? Not in my opinion, but I guess that is up to each individual to decide for themselves. My advice is to not listen to either Jeff OR myself,<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> but rather to read the reports and articles by some of todays' top techs and archers on this issue. OR, simply decide for yourself. Best thing is to just go shoot and have fun, whatever your preference! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
03-05-2002, 02:56 PM
#43
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 520
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
One thing is the whole tradition thing. 3D was at one point the new kid on the block, and it got on the Solo cam thing quickly, and the rings wheren't that small at one time. The various spots tourneys have been around for a while, and they have their tradtions. I am not sure we can draw from that what the ultimate rig will be. There was one FITA indoors match in Italy that was won with a C2, what will happen outdoors over the next ten years will be more important than what tradtions have carried over from the past.
Also there is the design thing. Most single cam builders haven't really, or are just starting to turn their minds towards the ultimate accuracy game.
Exactly how different is a single cam anyway? What the design does is put all the cam surfaces one of the wheels. So far the relationship of these surfaces has been fundamentaly fixed, though there are modules etc... that create some options. Is it impossible to imagine a cam that has all those cam surfaces micro adjustible, sort of three plates assembled with micro adjusts (sounds heavy but if you have seen an incra jig, yo might know what I mean), or a more practical scenario someone else will com up with... Then on top of that there is the fool around pottential in the idler wheel.
At the moment we just have a design that was fundamentaly designed around hunting imperitives, that isn't as adjustible as another design, that if we wanted to could probably have a timing function built into it that would make adjustment impossible.
Also there is the design thing. Most single cam builders haven't really, or are just starting to turn their minds towards the ultimate accuracy game.
Exactly how different is a single cam anyway? What the design does is put all the cam surfaces one of the wheels. So far the relationship of these surfaces has been fundamentaly fixed, though there are modules etc... that create some options. Is it impossible to imagine a cam that has all those cam surfaces micro adjustible, sort of three plates assembled with micro adjusts (sounds heavy but if you have seen an incra jig, yo might know what I mean), or a more practical scenario someone else will com up with... Then on top of that there is the fool around pottential in the idler wheel.
At the moment we just have a design that was fundamentaly designed around hunting imperitives, that isn't as adjustible as another design, that if we wanted to could probably have a timing function built into it that would make adjustment impossible.
03-05-2002, 04:21 PM
#44
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In a Tarpon Boat
Posts: 846
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
I was going to say more on this subject but, like Jeff, don't feel like it either.
And like Phil Collins said in one of his songs, "I don't care anymore".
Shoot what you like; it doesn't really matter.
I think, I'll go shoot my beautiful Sley Recurve.
Sag.
And like Phil Collins said in one of his songs, "I don't care anymore".
Shoot what you like; it doesn't really matter.
I think, I'll go shoot my beautiful Sley Recurve.
Sag.
03-05-2002, 05:37 PM
#45
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Oh come on now Sag....don't give up! I wasn't online at all today and this was one heck of an interesting read before bed. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I wasn't online at all today and this was one heck of an interesting read before bed. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
03-05-2002, 07:51 PM
#49
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cincinnati oh USA
Posts: 626
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
ok here is my idea of a great 3d bow
65% letoff
70lbs.
37-40" ATA
7-8" brace height
IBO speed 300-315
long riser & long sight window
low wrist grip
solo cam
large idler
I think that does it
65% letoff
70lbs.
37-40" ATA
7-8" brace height
IBO speed 300-315
long riser & long sight window
low wrist grip
solo cam
large idler
I think that does it
03-06-2002, 12:04 AM
#50
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: calgary alberta canada
Posts: 250
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Boy, this one sure mutated. As I see it, the only two bow's not in their infancy stages are the longbow, and or recurve. Although some of the technical advancments implimented in the olympic recurves, put's them back in diapers. Twin cam's aren't figured out yet, and the solo cam is long from being figured out. Kind of like the ladies.<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
As I see it, Longer axle to axle, higher brace heights, with lower letoff, are smooth as milk, and easy to shoot. That would make them a good 3-D bow. Good shooting, from a not so technical outlook.
Dylan
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As I see it, Longer axle to axle, higher brace heights, with lower letoff, are smooth as milk, and easy to shoot. That would make them a good 3-D bow. Good shooting, from a not so technical outlook.
Dylan
>>>>--------o-->