What makes a 3D bow great?
03-04-2002, 05:38 PM
#21
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
JeffB,
Sorry if I helped bring the topic down, but the facts are the facts. In truth, there's more evidence to lean towards the solo-cam when you are asking the question of a great 3D bow, just by number of wins, and example, but many great scores are shot with BOTH each year.
Don't let anyone think a solo cam is inherently inaccurate, or vice-versa, they both can be great 3D bows and target bows, given some of the other criteria already covered here on this topic. No need to bring up misleading information in the discussion.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
Sorry if I helped bring the topic down, but the facts are the facts. In truth, there's more evidence to lean towards the solo-cam when you are asking the question of a great 3D bow, just by number of wins, and example, but many great scores are shot with BOTH each year.
Don't let anyone think a solo cam is inherently inaccurate, or vice-versa, they both can be great 3D bows and target bows, given some of the other criteria already covered here on this topic. No need to bring up misleading information in the discussion.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
03-04-2002, 06:57 PM
#22
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
NorthJeff--
First, please do not insult my intelligence by asking irrelevant questions such as "when was the last time you shot a National?" Where or when I shoot doesn't make a difference when it comes to technical facts or my knowledge thereof. Admittedly I do not compete anywhere near as much as I used to, but I have over 30+ years of total experience in this sport, and have been shooting 3D's since their inception. I've been on two shooting Staffs, with many titles and awards over the years. I think I qualify.
Misleading? Not. I never stated solocams are not accurate in some shooters' hands! In fact, in the past several years, most 3D Tournaments in the Pro Division have been won with them. What I did imply was that they are much more critical of shooter-input error than twins, and this is FACT. Twins can be fine-tuned to the highest degree.Conventional solos cannot, due to the fact that they cannot be "balanced", they have no opposing cam or cables with which to do so. Ever creep 1/16th of an inch with a solo, and wonder where that "high flier" came from? With a "supertuned" twin it is nonexistant.(you can "tune" it out) I've been round and round with this, and NO-ONE will ever tell me otherwise. I've tested too many of them, spoken with too many techs, and put far too much time into this subject to be buffaloed. In fact, these thoughts that I have been speaking about for months were just recently mirrored in the Jan/Feb issue of Archery Business magazine in the Industry Viewpoint section and authored by George Ryals IV. Interesting article,("Thoughts on the Single vs. Two Cam debate"
you should read it if you get a chance. He even includes a description of what I call "supertuning", which he calls "creep tuning".
Is there room for both twins and solos? Absolutely. Do some people like solos better? Of course. But I firmly despise the thinking from some that "twin cams are history", or "solos are better" when in fact this is just not true. They both have their place, and both can win in the correct hands. Yes, I firmly believe the twins, (when tuned correctly) are more accurate in the average archers' hands. Pros, of course, are not mere mortals, and do not creep, punch, pull, flinch, clutch, freeze, jerk, sneeze, peek, drop arms, overbow themselves, shoot too long of a drawlength, etc. Therefore they can utilize any design and still be very accurate.
Eventually I believe we will se a "hybrid" of sorts that will combine the tuning capabilities of twins, and the holding and solid-wall propeties of a solo, and this new design will take the market by storm. Maybe we'll even see it combined with Carbon-riser technology, and truly start a new era! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 03/04/2002 20:07:34
First, please do not insult my intelligence by asking irrelevant questions such as "when was the last time you shot a National?" Where or when I shoot doesn't make a difference when it comes to technical facts or my knowledge thereof. Admittedly I do not compete anywhere near as much as I used to, but I have over 30+ years of total experience in this sport, and have been shooting 3D's since their inception. I've been on two shooting Staffs, with many titles and awards over the years. I think I qualify.
Misleading? Not. I never stated solocams are not accurate in some shooters' hands! In fact, in the past several years, most 3D Tournaments in the Pro Division have been won with them. What I did imply was that they are much more critical of shooter-input error than twins, and this is FACT. Twins can be fine-tuned to the highest degree.Conventional solos cannot, due to the fact that they cannot be "balanced", they have no opposing cam or cables with which to do so. Ever creep 1/16th of an inch with a solo, and wonder where that "high flier" came from? With a "supertuned" twin it is nonexistant.(you can "tune" it out) I've been round and round with this, and NO-ONE will ever tell me otherwise. I've tested too many of them, spoken with too many techs, and put far too much time into this subject to be buffaloed. In fact, these thoughts that I have been speaking about for months were just recently mirrored in the Jan/Feb issue of Archery Business magazine in the Industry Viewpoint section and authored by George Ryals IV. Interesting article,("Thoughts on the Single vs. Two Cam debate"
you should read it if you get a chance. He even includes a description of what I call "supertuning", which he calls "creep tuning".Is there room for both twins and solos? Absolutely. Do some people like solos better? Of course. But I firmly despise the thinking from some that "twin cams are history", or "solos are better" when in fact this is just not true. They both have their place, and both can win in the correct hands. Yes, I firmly believe the twins, (when tuned correctly) are more accurate in the average archers' hands. Pros, of course, are not mere mortals, and do not creep, punch, pull, flinch, clutch, freeze, jerk, sneeze, peek, drop arms, overbow themselves, shoot too long of a drawlength, etc. Therefore they can utilize any design and still be very accurate.
Eventually I believe we will se a "hybrid" of sorts that will combine the tuning capabilities of twins, and the holding and solid-wall propeties of a solo, and this new design will take the market by storm. Maybe we'll even see it combined with Carbon-riser technology, and truly start a new era! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 03/04/2002 20:07:34
03-04-2002, 07:55 PM
#23
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Pinwheel 12,
If you have the ability, and do, shoot 60x indoors much of the time then you have the ability to "test" bows. If not, then someone wouldn't generally have the ability to "test" a bow. Many of the "old school" archers don't care for one-cams-just a fad, and are still trying to rationalize their negative comments from when they first arrived.
There are many tech guys out there who love to give opinions on the accuracy and effeciancy of many products, but in truth, don't shoot well enough to know the difference from a 59x set-up to a 56x set-up. They are "tech" guys, not shooters. There are also many two-cam guys who haven't shot a one-cam long enough to know what they are truly capable of. Maybe a game here, a game there, but not a seasons worth.
High fliers are a myth! I can honestly say in the past 8 years I've never had one. In fact, in the past 6 years I've never failed to shoot a 300, let alone have a high flier ruin a game. Thats with 10 different models, and sometimes a couple of each model, and no fliers.
Talk about qualifying to "test" equipment, how about if you have a 59X indoor avg., 550+ field round avg., and 3D wins in the past 4 or 5 years, when the shooters were doing the winning and an errant shot was not just a bad shot, but a tournament ending shot. People who fit those descriptions can be "testers" in my book. How many "tech" guys have these abilities?
Do I think one cams are as good as two-cams? you bet! Do I think they are better? Who cares! The point is, to imply that a one-cam is only good in the hands of a good shooter, is a slap in the face to many top pros out there who shoot the one-cam becuase they actually feel they are shooting the best bow. Who the heck are you to question them?
A one cam isn't forgiving?? I set up my latest Conquest II in June of 2001. Since that time I have shot a few thousand arrows through it, won a national 3D tournamet, and managed to shoot 60X with it 2 weeks ago, on my 7th indoor round in 2 years, without retuning, twisting the string, checking the weight, or in general, doing anything with it other than carry it back and forth in my truck, shove it in a bow case for a couple of plane rides, or stuff it in the stairway of my home. Actually haven't even lubed it, cleaned it, or waxed the string in a few months. Your right, I've had two one cams that were more forgiving, but at 70#'s with carbon arrows and a speed of 282, I'll take it.
Give the one-cams the respect they deserve, try shooting one, who knows it might even bring back that tournament fire and inspire you to go to a couple of national shoots this year. I'm not doubting your knowledge of the sport, materials, quality, whatever, but with your comments about one-cams, I am questioning your ability to differentiate the shooting capabilities of the two types of bows. Afterall, if you had the ability to shoot at the level needed to tell the difference, you truly wouldn't have made those comments.
I can tell the difference, I choose to shoot a one-cam, but it's just my personal preference, not a point of exclusion of the other great bows on the market today-especially 2 cams! Keep the facts in the discussion.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
If you have the ability, and do, shoot 60x indoors much of the time then you have the ability to "test" bows. If not, then someone wouldn't generally have the ability to "test" a bow. Many of the "old school" archers don't care for one-cams-just a fad, and are still trying to rationalize their negative comments from when they first arrived.
There are many tech guys out there who love to give opinions on the accuracy and effeciancy of many products, but in truth, don't shoot well enough to know the difference from a 59x set-up to a 56x set-up. They are "tech" guys, not shooters. There are also many two-cam guys who haven't shot a one-cam long enough to know what they are truly capable of. Maybe a game here, a game there, but not a seasons worth.
High fliers are a myth! I can honestly say in the past 8 years I've never had one. In fact, in the past 6 years I've never failed to shoot a 300, let alone have a high flier ruin a game. Thats with 10 different models, and sometimes a couple of each model, and no fliers.
Talk about qualifying to "test" equipment, how about if you have a 59X indoor avg., 550+ field round avg., and 3D wins in the past 4 or 5 years, when the shooters were doing the winning and an errant shot was not just a bad shot, but a tournament ending shot. People who fit those descriptions can be "testers" in my book. How many "tech" guys have these abilities?
Do I think one cams are as good as two-cams? you bet! Do I think they are better? Who cares! The point is, to imply that a one-cam is only good in the hands of a good shooter, is a slap in the face to many top pros out there who shoot the one-cam becuase they actually feel they are shooting the best bow. Who the heck are you to question them?
A one cam isn't forgiving?? I set up my latest Conquest II in June of 2001. Since that time I have shot a few thousand arrows through it, won a national 3D tournamet, and managed to shoot 60X with it 2 weeks ago, on my 7th indoor round in 2 years, without retuning, twisting the string, checking the weight, or in general, doing anything with it other than carry it back and forth in my truck, shove it in a bow case for a couple of plane rides, or stuff it in the stairway of my home. Actually haven't even lubed it, cleaned it, or waxed the string in a few months. Your right, I've had two one cams that were more forgiving, but at 70#'s with carbon arrows and a speed of 282, I'll take it.
Give the one-cams the respect they deserve, try shooting one, who knows it might even bring back that tournament fire and inspire you to go to a couple of national shoots this year. I'm not doubting your knowledge of the sport, materials, quality, whatever, but with your comments about one-cams, I am questioning your ability to differentiate the shooting capabilities of the two types of bows. Afterall, if you had the ability to shoot at the level needed to tell the difference, you truly wouldn't have made those comments.
I can tell the difference, I choose to shoot a one-cam, but it's just my personal preference, not a point of exclusion of the other great bows on the market today-especially 2 cams! Keep the facts in the discussion.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
03-04-2002, 08:09 PM
#24
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In a Tarpon Boat
Posts: 846
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
To me, the very best and most accurate bows in the world are...
Bowman, Merlin Max2000, Red Man, PSE Mach 11, Martin Scepter, Martin MV-2. Whether it be for target, 3-D, or field shooting. These bows are in a class by themselves when it comes to top accuracy and all of them are 39" ata and more.
NONE of them use Solo Cam technology and never will!
Stewart Bowman, the builder of my Accu-Riser, has won lots of field shooting championships over the years with his twin cam bows.
Stewart claims one cams cannot compete with twin cams, especially at the longer range Fita distances.
Stewart will only build you a one cam Accu-Riser under protest and will tell you that it's inferior.
I have shot my one cam PSE Mach bows against my Bowman at 90 meters and I can easily best the scores of my one cam PSE bows with my twin cam Bowman. I personally feel, my Mach 10 is as good any Mathews ever made and if it can't beat my Bowman then a Mathews, imo, sure can't either.
One cams are plenty accurate, just not quite as accurate as a twin.
I do love a one cam with an 80% let-off for hunting. That's what my Mach bows are for.
But if I want to shoot targets or 3-D, I reach for my Cadillac twin cam.
Do all those Pro shooters HAVE to shoot for Mathews ?
Darn right! If they want to continued to be paid.
Heck, I would shoot for them too if I could shoot like Randy Ulmer and get paid. What idiot wouldn't ?
Sag.
Bowman, Merlin Max2000, Red Man, PSE Mach 11, Martin Scepter, Martin MV-2. Whether it be for target, 3-D, or field shooting. These bows are in a class by themselves when it comes to top accuracy and all of them are 39" ata and more.
NONE of them use Solo Cam technology and never will!
Stewart Bowman, the builder of my Accu-Riser, has won lots of field shooting championships over the years with his twin cam bows.
Stewart claims one cams cannot compete with twin cams, especially at the longer range Fita distances.
Stewart will only build you a one cam Accu-Riser under protest and will tell you that it's inferior.
I have shot my one cam PSE Mach bows against my Bowman at 90 meters and I can easily best the scores of my one cam PSE bows with my twin cam Bowman. I personally feel, my Mach 10 is as good any Mathews ever made and if it can't beat my Bowman then a Mathews, imo, sure can't either.
One cams are plenty accurate, just not quite as accurate as a twin.
I do love a one cam with an 80% let-off for hunting. That's what my Mach bows are for.
But if I want to shoot targets or 3-D, I reach for my Cadillac twin cam.
Do all those Pro shooters HAVE to shoot for Mathews ?
Darn right! If they want to continued to be paid.
Heck, I would shoot for them too if I could shoot like Randy Ulmer and get paid. What idiot wouldn't ?
Sag.
03-04-2002, 08:20 PM
#25
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
And here we are folks...
North Jeff comes out agressive and swinging..landing a solid punch to PW12's abdomen
PW12 rolls with the punch and sneaks in a left
NorthJeff lands a few nice Jabs...
Uh..wait a minute..theres a spectator stepping into the ring!!!
SAG has suckerpunched NorthJeff!!
The referee sure has his hands full..
DING DING...
ROUND OVER...
SAG is ******ed out of the ring, as PW and NJ make their way back to their respective corners...
NJ is a bit bloodied from SAGS blow to the back of the head..the cutman is coming up to take a look folks...
PW's eye is swelling & they have the ice ready..The grizzled vet better come out swinging in round two folks!!
And now a word from our sponsors..
*cut to Britney Spears Pepsi Commercial*
JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - JeffB on 03/04/2002 21:22:42
North Jeff comes out agressive and swinging..landing a solid punch to PW12's abdomen
PW12 rolls with the punch and sneaks in a left
NorthJeff lands a few nice Jabs...
Uh..wait a minute..theres a spectator stepping into the ring!!!
SAG has suckerpunched NorthJeff!!
The referee sure has his hands full..
DING DING...
ROUND OVER...
SAG is ******ed out of the ring, as PW and NJ make their way back to their respective corners...
NJ is a bit bloodied from SAGS blow to the back of the head..the cutman is coming up to take a look folks...
PW's eye is swelling & they have the ice ready..The grizzled vet better come out swinging in round two folks!!
And now a word from our sponsors..
*cut to Britney Spears Pepsi Commercial*
JeffB <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - JeffB on 03/04/2002 21:22:42
03-04-2002, 08:36 PM
#26
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
That Britney Spears thing ruined my concentrations for a couple of moments....
OK, Sag, you say this bowman guy has won all these field championships with his bow, which ones? One-cam's can't compete at FITA distances? The outdoor NFAA nationals is about the most prestigous display of outdoor target shooting skill-out to 80 yards, dominated by the likes of the Ragsdales, Mike Lieter(sp?), and Michael Anderson....wait Michael Anderson? doesn't he shoot a one-cam?
You know, now that I think of it, I think he's they guy that just won Vegas-with a one-cam(2nd year in a row Vegas was won with a one-cam).
Can you imagine how well he would have done with a 2-cam?
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
OK, Sag, you say this bowman guy has won all these field championships with his bow, which ones? One-cam's can't compete at FITA distances? The outdoor NFAA nationals is about the most prestigous display of outdoor target shooting skill-out to 80 yards, dominated by the likes of the Ragsdales, Mike Lieter(sp?), and Michael Anderson....wait Michael Anderson? doesn't he shoot a one-cam?
You know, now that I think of it, I think he's they guy that just won Vegas-with a one-cam(2nd year in a row Vegas was won with a one-cam).
Can you imagine how well he would have done with a 2-cam?
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
03-04-2002, 08:38 PM
#27
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In a Tarpon Boat
Posts: 846
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Hey, Jeff.
That's two weeks in a row you've had me to ROTFLMAO!
Besides, I feel, it's my duty to "Sucker Punch" anyone who mouths off to my old friend Pinwheel.
Sag.
That's two weeks in a row you've had me to ROTFLMAO!
Besides, I feel, it's my duty to "Sucker Punch" anyone who mouths off to my old friend Pinwheel.
Sag.
03-04-2002, 08:46 PM
#28
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In a Tarpon Boat
Posts: 846
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
NorthJeff,
I'll punch you again. I mean, I'll respond to you again tomorrow. I've got to get up at 5:00 AM.
Later, LOL.
Sag.
Edited by - Sagittarius on 03/05/2002 08:21:00
I'll punch you again. I mean, I'll respond to you again tomorrow. I've got to get up at 5:00 AM.
Later, LOL.
Sag.
Edited by - Sagittarius on 03/05/2002 08:21:00
03-04-2002, 11:00 PM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Heaven IA USA
Posts: 2,597
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Mods, don't you dare lock this one up!!! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jeff B, are you sure your not a writer for a sitcom,?....say 'Frazier' or 'Who loves Raymond'!!! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
I look forward to hear more on the "Solo/Twin" debate...
Jeff B, are you sure your not a writer for a sitcom,?....say 'Frazier' or 'Who loves Raymond'!!! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
I look forward to hear more on the "Solo/Twin" debate...
03-05-2002, 01:20 AM
#30
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 520
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
I don't know who is right here on the bigger issue.
"Yes, I firmly believe the twins, (when tuned correctly) are more accurate in the average archers' hands"
We could probably also argue about what constitutes the average. But if, for instance, we mean the statistical average archer, then in general he/she isn't even active in target shooting, and isn't interested in spending a lot of time tuning either. That is why the solo cam is popular, because it promised less tuning (true or false isn't my point). To say a dual would be better if people would just do the thing the marketplace clearly shows they are unwilling to do might be a winning argument in some parallel universe...
I'll now turn this argument back to those who know what they are talking about.
"Yes, I firmly believe the twins, (when tuned correctly) are more accurate in the average archers' hands"
We could probably also argue about what constitutes the average. But if, for instance, we mean the statistical average archer, then in general he/she isn't even active in target shooting, and isn't interested in spending a lot of time tuning either. That is why the solo cam is popular, because it promised less tuning (true or false isn't my point). To say a dual would be better if people would just do the thing the marketplace clearly shows they are unwilling to do might be a winning argument in some parallel universe...
I'll now turn this argument back to those who know what they are talking about.