What makes a 3D bow great?
03-04-2002, 12:16 PM
#11
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
The ability of the bow to shoot 60X indoors at a regular pace by an accomplished indoor shooter.
280+ speed. Most pros are around 280.
A bow you don't have to tinker with all summer. I usually shoot my bow in, tune it one time, and shoot for the season.
Dependable. Most bows now days have that covered.
I've owned about 10 different Mathews over the last 8 years. I've shot 60X indoors with 5 of them, and I couldn't with the rest. The bows I've shot well in tournaments with were all 60X bows.
I know I might catch flack with this, but if some of the top pros are shooting amazing rounds with the bow, it's a good bow. No, those top pros whouldn't have necessarily shot the same with another bow, even in the same line.
A good shooter will shoot good scores, with any good bow, whatever brand.
A bow that "feels" good is over rated. If it's a proven winner, it's a good bow. Now granted, I've shot a Mathews for 8 years, but all of my bow purchases were purchased, except for the first one, because of the great tournament results being shot by the winners, not becuase they felt good-I never even fired an arrow with them before I ordered them. All of the combinations I ordered-arrow, whatever, were already proven winners, so I went from there. I would need to play with the bow for 2 to 3 weeks first to test on my own and I've never had the time. I guess I'm a coppy-cat.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
280+ speed. Most pros are around 280.
A bow you don't have to tinker with all summer. I usually shoot my bow in, tune it one time, and shoot for the season.
Dependable. Most bows now days have that covered.
I've owned about 10 different Mathews over the last 8 years. I've shot 60X indoors with 5 of them, and I couldn't with the rest. The bows I've shot well in tournaments with were all 60X bows.
I know I might catch flack with this, but if some of the top pros are shooting amazing rounds with the bow, it's a good bow. No, those top pros whouldn't have necessarily shot the same with another bow, even in the same line.
A good shooter will shoot good scores, with any good bow, whatever brand.
A bow that "feels" good is over rated. If it's a proven winner, it's a good bow. Now granted, I've shot a Mathews for 8 years, but all of my bow purchases were purchased, except for the first one, because of the great tournament results being shot by the winners, not becuase they felt good-I never even fired an arrow with them before I ordered them. All of the combinations I ordered-arrow, whatever, were already proven winners, so I went from there. I would need to play with the bow for 2 to 3 weeks first to test on my own and I've never had the time. I guess I'm a coppy-cat.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan.
03-04-2002, 12:19 PM
#12
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Back when 3D was first introduced, we mostly used whatever we were using for hunting equipment. Of course, back then, they were big old tanky bows with long ATA and deep brace, barely capable of getting 220-240 fps. scoring was 10, 5, too, which made a huge difference on accuracy, basically if you could hit a small watermelon at unknown yardages you were in.(with some of the bows back then, it was a wonder we could even do that!)Tons of fun! Of course things changed, the sport got more competitve, and the 10-8-5 scoring was implemented, then later on X-10-8-5, or 12-10-8-5. People started figuring out that any increase in speed would make for a larger "hit window" (how many yards you could be off and still hit the 10) so then we started to see everyone cranking up their bows to 80+ pounds.(no 5 grain rule yet) That was still not enough, so over time they've implemented overdraws, hatchet cams, lower brace heights, carbon arrows,(then the 5 grain rule) thinner strings, shorter ATA, Perimeter cams, nastier draw force curves, etc, etc, etc. All in the name of speed to make up for blown yardage calls! (Easier to learn yardage, don't you think?<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) What they all failed to realize during this process of evolution was the fact that they were giving up forgiveness and shootability simply for that speed. I fell into the trap too, just like everyone else, and found myself shooting those darned "rat-traps" (35" bows with sub-6" brace heights with draw force curves that would completely rip a rotator cuff. Stupid!) Luckily my brain works again now. (most of the time, anyway.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>)
Each application calls for a different bow for top performance.That's it in a nutshell. Hunting rigs generally are shorter for tight treestand work, and lighter for packing around all day. They are available in both solo or twin cam. Target bows are long ata, deeper brace, and altho most target archers choose twins because of their more inherently forgiving design, some choose solos as well. The top shooters can shoot either with astounding accuracy. The solos are more critical for the average shooter when it comes to this application, however.
Which brings us back around to 3D. I have had the opportunity to compete in this format for over 2 decades now, seen many "fads" come and go, and in all honesty cannot see shooting 3D nowadays with these shorter bows.Back 20 years ago when the scoring was 10, 5, sure, but not nowadays. Not if you want to be truly competitive. I agree with Frank, and recommend a bow with at least 36-38" ATA,(longer is better, I'm back to over 41" for 3D now) at least a 7" brace, with eccentrics that will give you DECENT speed. (280-290 range) It doesn't have to be a barnburner, IMO. (Just learn your yardage!) 3D has become full-fledged Tournament shooting now, and is no longer hunting practice.(Waah! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>) You are shooting for X's or 12's, and need the most forgiving and accurate setup you can find to get you to the top, IF that's where you want to be.
For the person that does OCCASIONAL 3D's, these hunting rigs in the 31-35" range will allow you to have fun with friends and possibly even win a local or State event, but IMO would severely hamper your chances at going for any IBO or ASA Regional or World title that calls for many X's and 12's to be shot to win. These bows that "try to cover it all" will get you into the 8 and 10 sometimes, but you need just a little better stability and forgiveness to get you into the 10 and X's or 12's consistently, IMO. I agree with Ossage, the Patriot needs a big brother with that great VFT. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 03/04/2002 16:19:49
Each application calls for a different bow for top performance.That's it in a nutshell. Hunting rigs generally are shorter for tight treestand work, and lighter for packing around all day. They are available in both solo or twin cam. Target bows are long ata, deeper brace, and altho most target archers choose twins because of their more inherently forgiving design, some choose solos as well. The top shooters can shoot either with astounding accuracy. The solos are more critical for the average shooter when it comes to this application, however.
Which brings us back around to 3D. I have had the opportunity to compete in this format for over 2 decades now, seen many "fads" come and go, and in all honesty cannot see shooting 3D nowadays with these shorter bows.Back 20 years ago when the scoring was 10, 5, sure, but not nowadays. Not if you want to be truly competitive. I agree with Frank, and recommend a bow with at least 36-38" ATA,(longer is better, I'm back to over 41" for 3D now) at least a 7" brace, with eccentrics that will give you DECENT speed. (280-290 range) It doesn't have to be a barnburner, IMO. (Just learn your yardage!) 3D has become full-fledged Tournament shooting now, and is no longer hunting practice.(Waah! <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>) You are shooting for X's or 12's, and need the most forgiving and accurate setup you can find to get you to the top, IF that's where you want to be.
For the person that does OCCASIONAL 3D's, these hunting rigs in the 31-35" range will allow you to have fun with friends and possibly even win a local or State event, but IMO would severely hamper your chances at going for any IBO or ASA Regional or World title that calls for many X's and 12's to be shot to win. These bows that "try to cover it all" will get you into the 8 and 10 sometimes, but you need just a little better stability and forgiveness to get you into the 10 and X's or 12's consistently, IMO. I agree with Ossage, the Patriot needs a big brother with that great VFT. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 03/04/2002 16:19:49
03-04-2002, 03:44 PM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
For the person that does OCCASIONAL 3D's, these hunting rigs in the 31-35" range will allow you to have fun with friends and possibly even win a local or State event, but IMO would severely hamper your chances at going for any IBO or ASA Regional or World title that calls for many X's and 12's to be shot to win. These bows that "try to cover it all" will get you into the 8 and 10 sometimes, but you need just a little better stability and forgiveness to get you into the 10 and X's or 12's consistently, IMO. I agree with Ossage, the Patriot needs a big brother with that great VFT. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Isn't that what I said? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
And it seems 2003 will see more VFT technology in the BowTech line according to the press release on the Patriot.
JeffB
For the person that does OCCASIONAL 3D's, these hunting rigs in the 31-35" range will allow you to have fun with friends and possibly even win a local or State event, but IMO would severely hamper your chances at going for any IBO or ASA Regional or World title that calls for many X's and 12's to be shot to win. These bows that "try to cover it all" will get you into the 8 and 10 sometimes, but you need just a little better stability and forgiveness to get you into the 10 and X's or 12's consistently, IMO. I agree with Ossage, the Patriot needs a big brother with that great VFT. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Isn't that what I said? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
And it seems 2003 will see more VFT technology in the BowTech line according to the press release on the Patriot.
JeffB
03-04-2002, 04:05 PM
#14
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 520
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Pinwheel,
With all yor experience, can you tell me what is happening with arrows among the top shooters? It seemed a few years ago as if they were still shooting pretty fast bows, but shooting fat line cutting arrows, X7s were hot for a while. Also what weight is the standard pro shooting, is it still 70#? And what do you figure is the hot arrow. Is it still the ACC and X7?
With all yor experience, can you tell me what is happening with arrows among the top shooters? It seemed a few years ago as if they were still shooting pretty fast bows, but shooting fat line cutting arrows, X7s were hot for a while. Also what weight is the standard pro shooting, is it still 70#? And what do you figure is the hot arrow. Is it still the ACC and X7?
03-04-2002, 04:16 PM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pa.
Posts: 1,062
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
I've been searching for years for the " perfect " 3D bow. Now I'm going with a PSE Quantum, 39 in. 7 1/2 brace and 305 speed. Who knows, maybe this'll be the one, but I'll tell ya one thing- searching for it has been fun!!!!
03-04-2002, 04:25 PM
#16
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Benton Pa. USA
Posts: 13
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Thanks for the input folks. It basically reaffirms what I had believed to be true, but wanted to hear it from somebody more knowledgable than myself.
JeffB, No thanks needed. I wish there was more access to bow reports that in depth and objective.
Pa, The local pro shop announced a few weeks ago that they are going to start carrying the bowtech line(they already carry Mathews and PSE) so I planned to check out that Pro 38.
Pinwheel, Your words really take me back hehe. I started 3D shooting about 15 years ago when it was all 10-5-0 scoring and I was there when 250 was good speed out of a bow. I quit shooting sometime during that huge speed craze of the early '90's. Still have the old Pearson Spoiler I was shooting at the time... 85 pound draw weight, with the overdraw I was shooting a 24" arrow that weighed right around 380 grains. God must love fools I guess because I pumped thousands of arrows through that bow with that setup and the thing never did come apart on me. Then again, I think that bow is a part of the reason I stopped shooting for the better part of 10 years.
JeffB, No thanks needed. I wish there was more access to bow reports that in depth and objective.
Pa, The local pro shop announced a few weeks ago that they are going to start carrying the bowtech line(they already carry Mathews and PSE) so I planned to check out that Pro 38.
Pinwheel, Your words really take me back hehe.
I started 3D shooting about 15 years ago when it was all 10-5-0 scoring and I was there when 250 was good speed out of a bow. I quit shooting sometime during that huge speed craze of the early '90's. Still have the old Pearson Spoiler I was shooting at the time... 85 pound draw weight, with the overdraw I was shooting a 24" arrow that weighed right around 380 grains. God must love fools I guess because I pumped thousands of arrows through that bow with that setup and the thing never did come apart on me. Then again, I think that bow is a part of the reason I stopped shooting for the better part of 10 years.
03-04-2002, 05:06 PM
#17
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Munising MI
Posts: 501
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Pinwheel 12,
The solos are more critical for average shooter??
Most target shooters choose twins because of their inherently forgiving design??
When was the last time you were actually at a national shoot? -target or 3D? Vegas, the most prestigous indoor target event was just won again by a one-cam, with just as many top indoor shooters using a one-cam, as two cams. In fact, wasn't the outdoor target nationals won by a one cam last year?
Don't tell me you think all those pros use a one-cam because the have to, or are forced to shoot for a one-cam company. How come most of the Hoyt pros shoot the one-cam bows, even though they have a choice? The pros shoot a bow they feel they can win with.
One cam bows are equal, at worst, for even the average shooter.
Get the facts straight!
What's your name, maybe I'll see you at the next national shoot.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
The solos are more critical for average shooter??
Most target shooters choose twins because of their inherently forgiving design??
When was the last time you were actually at a national shoot? -target or 3D? Vegas, the most prestigous indoor target event was just won again by a one-cam, with just as many top indoor shooters using a one-cam, as two cams. In fact, wasn't the outdoor target nationals won by a one cam last year?
Don't tell me you think all those pros use a one-cam because the have to, or are forced to shoot for a one-cam company. How come most of the Hoyt pros shoot the one-cam bows, even though they have a choice? The pros shoot a bow they feel they can win with.
One cam bows are equal, at worst, for even the average shooter.
Get the facts straight!
What's your name, maybe I'll see you at the next national shoot.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
03-04-2002, 05:16 PM
#18
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Pinwheel 12,
The solos are more critical for average shooter??
Most target shooters choose twins because of their inherently forgiving design??
When was the last time you were actually at a national shoot? -target or 3D? Vegas, the most prestigous indoor target event was just won again by a one-cam, with just as many top indoor shooters using a one-cam, as two cams. In fact, wasn't the outdoor target nationals won by a one cam last year?
Don't tell me you think all those pros use a one-cam because the have to, or are forced to shoot for a one-cam company. How come most of the Hoyt pros shoot the one-cam bows, even though they have a choice? The pros shoot a bow they feel they can win with.
One cam bows are equal, at worst, for even the average shooter.
Get the facts straight!
What's your name, maybe I'll see you at the next national shoot.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
OH boy..here we go....
... AGAIN! <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Ladies and Gentleman, Welcome to the BOWSITE..err..nevermind...
JeffB
Pinwheel 12,
The solos are more critical for average shooter??
Most target shooters choose twins because of their inherently forgiving design??
When was the last time you were actually at a national shoot? -target or 3D? Vegas, the most prestigous indoor target event was just won again by a one-cam, with just as many top indoor shooters using a one-cam, as two cams. In fact, wasn't the outdoor target nationals won by a one cam last year?
Don't tell me you think all those pros use a one-cam because the have to, or are forced to shoot for a one-cam company. How come most of the Hoyt pros shoot the one-cam bows, even though they have a choice? The pros shoot a bow they feel they can win with.
One cam bows are equal, at worst, for even the average shooter.
Get the facts straight!
What's your name, maybe I'll see you at the next national shoot.
Jeff...U.P. of Michigan
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
OH boy..here we go....
... AGAIN! <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Ladies and Gentleman, Welcome to the BOWSITE..err..nevermind...
JeffB
03-04-2002, 05:31 PM
#19
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: What makes a 3D bow great?
Jeff,
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>...I was thinking the same thing...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Ding...Ding...
..And in this corner we have......
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Let the dual versus single cam debate begin! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>...I was thinking the same thing...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Ding...Ding...
..And in this corner we have......
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Let the dual versus single cam debate begin! <img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>