Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
07-22-2004, 07:08 AM
#32
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
This one gets posted on A.T. all the time of Clint Freeman as almost picture perfect form. Who's form do you think will hold up over a shooting session better and be more consistent shot after shot and after 100+ arrows? Clint's or the Swedish archer's?
07-22-2004, 07:33 AM
#33
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
the bend that is recommended is the natural bending (cracking) that occurs when you rotate your elbow outboard and do not over-extend your bow arm
I think a big issue is in my experience the bulk of the pro shops many visit have no clue and overbow people to begin with. I would assume a very very small percentage of archers are getting any kind of solid instruction on archery fundamentals from the get go. Most are just handed a bow that doesn't fit them as an individual and their on their own from there.
07-22-2004, 11:10 AM
#34
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
Rangeball:
I don't know if the bulk of pro shops do or don't do as you say, but I agree with much of what you said. You can also throw in the pile, catalogue ordering and used bow purchasing; which is not a bad thing if the person purchasing the bow knows what he or she should, in order to purchase a bow that is correct for them.
As for the pics of different shooters, Art P is correct when he said, "It is a mistake to take a picture of one guy's form, no matter how good he shoots, point your finger at the picture and say "that's how it's done." However, you know it is highly likely there are learning shooters who do not have access to a personal instructor who are doing just that. That is why I have asked, "What is exactly meant when someone says to bend your bow-arm." How bent is bent?
Not only do I believe there are shooters trying to teach themselves by looking at pictures, I know for a fact that there are shooters that are misinterpreting archery terminology's they do not yet understand; and some, if not many, are forming bad habits due to the misinterpretation. The "bent bow-arm" is one.
A novice starts shooting; keeps getting string-slap (which will make anyone want to over-bend their bow arm), can’t get their anchor to full draw so they bend their bow-arm until they can anchor, they are over-bowed, etc. Then they see pics such as the shooter from Sweden (is that not a vertical bend?) and read that some shooters seem to be saying that they are over-bending their bow-arm to keep from hitting their arm or clothing, and, bingo! The novice now believes he or she has correctly understood what bending your bow-arm means. The result is, consistency is just a word to them and they never become proficient with a bow.
I know there seems to be a redundancy occurring in this thread, but sometimes it takes repetitiveness or the same thing said in different ways to turn a person's light on.
I don't know if the bulk of pro shops do or don't do as you say, but I agree with much of what you said. You can also throw in the pile, catalogue ordering and used bow purchasing; which is not a bad thing if the person purchasing the bow knows what he or she should, in order to purchase a bow that is correct for them.
As for the pics of different shooters, Art P is correct when he said, "It is a mistake to take a picture of one guy's form, no matter how good he shoots, point your finger at the picture and say "that's how it's done." However, you know it is highly likely there are learning shooters who do not have access to a personal instructor who are doing just that. That is why I have asked, "What is exactly meant when someone says to bend your bow-arm." How bent is bent?
Not only do I believe there are shooters trying to teach themselves by looking at pictures, I know for a fact that there are shooters that are misinterpreting archery terminology's they do not yet understand; and some, if not many, are forming bad habits due to the misinterpretation. The "bent bow-arm" is one.
A novice starts shooting; keeps getting string-slap (which will make anyone want to over-bend their bow arm), can’t get their anchor to full draw so they bend their bow-arm until they can anchor, they are over-bowed, etc. Then they see pics such as the shooter from Sweden (is that not a vertical bend?) and read that some shooters seem to be saying that they are over-bending their bow-arm to keep from hitting their arm or clothing, and, bingo! The novice now believes he or she has correctly understood what bending your bow-arm means. The result is, consistency is just a word to them and they never become proficient with a bow.
I know there seems to be a redundancy occurring in this thread, but sometimes it takes repetitiveness or the same thing said in different ways to turn a person's light on.
07-22-2004, 12:13 PM
#35
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 140
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
c903
Some books, from competition shooters say, shoot with your arm in the same form it takes as it hangs, when you are standing.
I do not know if that will help, but it seams to give you both worlds: relaxed, & a little bend and a little straight.
Some books, from competition shooters say, shoot with your arm in the same form it takes as it hangs, when you are standing.
I do not know if that will help, but it seams to give you both worlds: relaxed, & a little bend and a little straight.
07-22-2004, 12:29 PM
#36
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
I don't know if the bulk of pro shops do or don't do as you say,
Around here that's definitely the case. Hell, you can't even walk out of the door with a decent tune from 99% of them... This from the "experts" many look to for advice, guidance and instruction.
It's a sad state of affairs.
07-22-2004, 01:16 PM
#37
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
Here is a training method from yesteryear that can reveal some things regarding gripping a bow, best wrist and hand position, rotating the elbow, string travel in relation to your arm, bow-arm bend, etc. It was taught by an excellent recurve shooter and coach. The method is still applicable and can apply to compound shooters.
My coach taught, using the exact rationale as stated by Art P.
I remember him (coach) saying (paraphrased), "There is the recommended way, and then, eventually, there is your way!" He taught the (standard) basics of proper shooting form, but because an individual's physical characteristics differ, he would first identify what particular form aspect may be best for the individual. It was because of him that I changed from a low-wrist grip to a high-wrist grip.
To demonstrate rotating the elbow and what hand (low, medium, high wrist) position may be best for the individual, here is what he had us do.
Using the edge of an interior door (narrow):
1. Stand in a shooting stance with the edge of the door being your bow grip.
2. Place your bow hand on the door edge, with the edge of the door intersecting the web of your hand as you would when properly holding (gripping) your bow.
3. Lean (sideways) towards the door as to simulate the pressure on your bow hand of a drawn bow.
4. Use a low-wrist grip, but keep your fingers relaxed and slightly bent towards the riser. Now try to rotate your bow-arm elbow outboard.
5. Now do the same with a medium-wrist and then a high-wrist.
6. Which grip allows the best ease to maximally rotate your elbow and forearm outboard, and do so without raising the bow-arm shoulder?
At the time, I was using a low-wrist grip, with the heel of my hand resting against the grip-swell. He eventually walked up to me, placed his hand on my bow shoulder, and told me to try the method again, but to keep my grip fingers open. As I attempted to rotate my arm, he pressed down on my bow shoulder. I was barely able to rotate my arm, and with much difficulty.
What he observed, was that in order for me to get my bow-arm turned and my elbow outboard, I was unconsciously and momentarily closing my fingers on the door and lifting my bow shoulder too high. Once into position, I would open my fingers but my bow shoulder remained too high in order for me to keep my arm rotated. He had me use a medium-wrist grip but to no avail.
Then he demonstrated the high-wrist grip and had me repeat the method using a high-wrist. Bam! Not only were my grip fingers automatically out and away from the door (riser,) I could not close them down with any great pressure or easily grab the door (bow) as long as I stayed in the high-wrist position. As I proceeded to rotate my bow-arm and elbow, I was amazed to discover that my forearm and elbow were already outboard and to a degree I had never been able to do, and my bow shoulder was down. Using another demonstrative method, he (coach) later showed the different distances between arm and string travel using different grip styles. Another benefit of my going to a high-wrist was I was able to lower my brace.
He went into the shop area, came back and introduced me to my first snap-on wrist sling. Once I became comfortable with the high-wrist grip, my accuracy gradually improved tenfold, and arm slapping by the string was seldom. Anyone that has shot a stick bow to any extent will know that to eliminate or minimize string to arm contact is a cause for celebration.
As to what does my story of grip-style have to with the bent-arm issue? Once I discovered that the high-wrist was best FOR ME; my bow shoulder was down where it should be, my draw-length was correct, and I was not over-bowed, the correct bend in MY bow-arm was just naturally there and is not something I think about
PS: When hunting, my clothing on my bow-arm is strapped down with Velcro straps or a woman's nylon hose.
My coach taught, using the exact rationale as stated by Art P.
Personal shooting style is always based on the shooter's individual physical capabilities and limitations.
To demonstrate rotating the elbow and what hand (low, medium, high wrist) position may be best for the individual, here is what he had us do.
Using the edge of an interior door (narrow):
1. Stand in a shooting stance with the edge of the door being your bow grip.
2. Place your bow hand on the door edge, with the edge of the door intersecting the web of your hand as you would when properly holding (gripping) your bow.
3. Lean (sideways) towards the door as to simulate the pressure on your bow hand of a drawn bow.
4. Use a low-wrist grip, but keep your fingers relaxed and slightly bent towards the riser. Now try to rotate your bow-arm elbow outboard.
5. Now do the same with a medium-wrist and then a high-wrist.
6. Which grip allows the best ease to maximally rotate your elbow and forearm outboard, and do so without raising the bow-arm shoulder?
At the time, I was using a low-wrist grip, with the heel of my hand resting against the grip-swell. He eventually walked up to me, placed his hand on my bow shoulder, and told me to try the method again, but to keep my grip fingers open. As I attempted to rotate my arm, he pressed down on my bow shoulder. I was barely able to rotate my arm, and with much difficulty.
What he observed, was that in order for me to get my bow-arm turned and my elbow outboard, I was unconsciously and momentarily closing my fingers on the door and lifting my bow shoulder too high. Once into position, I would open my fingers but my bow shoulder remained too high in order for me to keep my arm rotated. He had me use a medium-wrist grip but to no avail.
Then he demonstrated the high-wrist grip and had me repeat the method using a high-wrist. Bam! Not only were my grip fingers automatically out and away from the door (riser,) I could not close them down with any great pressure or easily grab the door (bow) as long as I stayed in the high-wrist position. As I proceeded to rotate my bow-arm and elbow, I was amazed to discover that my forearm and elbow were already outboard and to a degree I had never been able to do, and my bow shoulder was down. Using another demonstrative method, he (coach) later showed the different distances between arm and string travel using different grip styles. Another benefit of my going to a high-wrist was I was able to lower my brace.
He went into the shop area, came back and introduced me to my first snap-on wrist sling. Once I became comfortable with the high-wrist grip, my accuracy gradually improved tenfold, and arm slapping by the string was seldom. Anyone that has shot a stick bow to any extent will know that to eliminate or minimize string to arm contact is a cause for celebration.
As to what does my story of grip-style have to with the bent-arm issue? Once I discovered that the high-wrist was best FOR ME; my bow shoulder was down where it should be, my draw-length was correct, and I was not over-bowed, the correct bend in MY bow-arm was just naturally there and is not something I think about
PS: When hunting, my clothing on my bow-arm is strapped down with Velcro straps or a woman's nylon hose.
07-22-2004, 01:53 PM
#38
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Gouldsboro, PA
Posts: 548
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
c903,
Wow, thank you for that explanation. I have been working on my shooting technique this year, plus getting back into archery. I've been reading your comments on this since I, and probably like some others out there, do not have a coach so we are self taught. This definately helps me in understaing more about the proper way to hold a bow, stance, and relase.
My shooting has definately improved this year. Since Archery season opens in October, my amount of shooting will also increase over August and September, as well as my muzzleloading shooting.
Thanks again,
Tom
Wow, thank you for that explanation. I have been working on my shooting technique this year, plus getting back into archery. I've been reading your comments on this since I, and probably like some others out there, do not have a coach so we are self taught. This definately helps me in understaing more about the proper way to hold a bow, stance, and relase.
My shooting has definately improved this year. Since Archery season opens in October, my amount of shooting will also increase over August and September, as well as my muzzleloading shooting.
Thanks again,
Tom
07-22-2004, 04:37 PM
#39
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 140
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
The higher the pressure on the grip, the less movement amplification on the arrow rest, thus greater accuracy. But a hunter who may need to hold a draw for a while, waiting on a shot, may have a inclination to lower the grip, to put the weight back on the heel of the hand for comfort or weakness (like myself). Just make sure the release is not from that position.
07-23-2004, 01:42 PM
#40
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 312
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
At a 3D shoot at my club, the winner shot with a bent arm. This shoot had a couple of factory pro's and some a couple of guys who shoot on a national level. His arm was so bent that I would estimate that it took 2" off of his DL. (He is tall enough that the 2" doesn't matter, he still shoots about a 30" DL). So it is possible to shoot well with a bent arm as long as you can repeat it every time.
That being said, IMHO the straight but not locked bow arm will be the most accurate for the vast majority of archers. If your hunting clothes interfer with the shot, you should do something about the clothes, not your shooting form.
One disadvantage to the radically bent arm is that it requires a lot more strength to shoot. The bent arm archer above told me that he had been away from archery a few years and had not yet built up enough strength to shoot with a back tension release. release. Unfortunately, I did not get to ask him more about it.
A second disadvantage is that over the years, you will probably have elbow problems. He's too young to think of that, I'm not
JMHO.
Allen
That being said, IMHO the straight but not locked bow arm will be the most accurate for the vast majority of archers. If your hunting clothes interfer with the shot, you should do something about the clothes, not your shooting form.
One disadvantage to the radically bent arm is that it requires a lot more strength to shoot. The bent arm archer above told me that he had been away from archery a few years and had not yet built up enough strength to shoot with a back tension release. release. Unfortunately, I did not get to ask him more about it.
A second disadvantage is that over the years, you will probably have elbow problems. He's too young to think of that, I'm not
JMHO.
Allen