Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
07-21-2004, 07:06 PM
#21
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,072
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
Amen Arther P,
Also, in Terry Ragsdale's instruction videos it is explained that the bow arm should be in the same position as it would hang naturally by your side. Not extended fully out. Imagine what he could do with a bow if he had proper form. If the bow arm were extended all the way out it would be next to impossible to get proper back tension. To shoot without back tension, is detrimental to accuracy IMO. With the front arm extended fully the bow is being pulled and held back with the longer arm muscles, and not the shorter , stronger back muscles. I do ALOT of hunting and 3-D shooting. I try to incorporate back tension in hunting as much as possible. I shoot a scott little bitty goose with both back tension and with the trigger method in those hard to shoot positions. If you like to shoot with the straight bow arm then go for it. I would never critisize a person for sending an arrow home every time, even if it wasn't the form that I would use.
Also, in Terry Ragsdale's instruction videos it is explained that the bow arm should be in the same position as it would hang naturally by your side. Not extended fully out. Imagine what he could do with a bow if he had proper form. If the bow arm were extended all the way out it would be next to impossible to get proper back tension. To shoot without back tension, is detrimental to accuracy IMO. With the front arm extended fully the bow is being pulled and held back with the longer arm muscles, and not the shorter , stronger back muscles. I do ALOT of hunting and 3-D shooting. I try to incorporate back tension in hunting as much as possible. I shoot a scott little bitty goose with both back tension and with the trigger method in those hard to shoot positions. If you like to shoot with the straight bow arm then go for it. I would never critisize a person for sending an arrow home every time, even if it wasn't the form that I would use.
07-21-2004, 07:30 PM
#22
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
Well maybe I'm a little different, but I'll set my draw 1/4" or so on the short side for my hunting bow vs my target bow which I consider to be about my best for draw.
Reason for this is like RA mentioned, a little "forgiveness" of the situation at hand. Heavy sleeved jackets have almost cost me a dandy buck. With a tad shorter draw on my hunting rig, it allows me to still keep my anchor that I'm used to and have been using throughout the year, but will give me a little more clearance on my forearm with thick clothing. Over my bulky cold weather coat I always wear (now) an arm guard to keep my forearm clothing material in check. I only need to make one shot that counts.
Also, a slightly shorter draw gives (me) a slightly better window of form for really awkward situations. Imagine if couldn't move your feet very much but you had to twist around to your right a LOT to make a shot (for a RH shooter). Like if you were standing there and your target was off in the direction of your right shoulder. With a draw length a tad on the short side, it still gives some room to apply back tension at full draw. If the draw was on the long side, there's nowhere tofully draw or "pull"- try it you'll see what I mean. No problem twisting to your left as you can bend your bow arm a little more.
I shoot on average around 1000 shots a month, a little lighter in the summer. I know what my best target form and draw should feel like because I'm doing it 95% of the time. The other 5% of the time I'm shooting my hunting bow to dial in broadheads or double check tuning. So my best hunting form with a slightly shorter draw may not exactly duplicate my best target form.... Just my ramblings.......
Reason for this is like RA mentioned, a little "forgiveness" of the situation at hand. Heavy sleeved jackets have almost cost me a dandy buck. With a tad shorter draw on my hunting rig, it allows me to still keep my anchor that I'm used to and have been using throughout the year, but will give me a little more clearance on my forearm with thick clothing. Over my bulky cold weather coat I always wear (now) an arm guard to keep my forearm clothing material in check. I only need to make one shot that counts.
Also, a slightly shorter draw gives (me) a slightly better window of form for really awkward situations. Imagine if couldn't move your feet very much but you had to twist around to your right a LOT to make a shot (for a RH shooter). Like if you were standing there and your target was off in the direction of your right shoulder. With a draw length a tad on the short side, it still gives some room to apply back tension at full draw. If the draw was on the long side, there's nowhere tofully draw or "pull"- try it you'll see what I mean. No problem twisting to your left as you can bend your bow arm a little more.
I shoot on average around 1000 shots a month, a little lighter in the summer. I know what my best target form and draw should feel like because I'm doing it 95% of the time. The other 5% of the time I'm shooting my hunting bow to dial in broadheads or double check tuning. So my best hunting form with a slightly shorter draw may not exactly duplicate my best target form.... Just my ramblings.......
07-21-2004, 07:36 PM
#23
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
"Shooting low wrist, I don't get full extension in my elbow. It keeps a natural, soft bend when I'm shooting. If I used high wrist, straight elbow, perfect "T" form and really stretched into the shot, I'd have a 35" draw length! It's bad enough at 33". I don't want a longer draw."
Bingo! A credible lead as to how I believe the bent bow-arm belief may have evolved, and very close to my own theory.
The more I read what Art has to contribute to the tech side, the more I realize that he knows his stuff and he can concisely cut through the crap. It is my theory that wrist positions, along with being over-bowed or having a too short draw-length, or all of the above, are possibly how the "bent-arm" method belief began. I also agree with Ragsdale.
However, other than how Art has explained why he personally needs to use a bent arm, and what degree of bend he uses, I wonder how many learning shooters or shooters wanting to try different methods, believe that some degree of bend in the bow is a must for proper shooting form, but do not know exactly how much bend they are suppose to have, and/or whether the bend is suppose to be horizontal or vertical?
Also, so far I don't believe I have read where anyone is being criticized for using a bent arm method.
Bingo! A credible lead as to how I believe the bent bow-arm belief may have evolved, and very close to my own theory.
The more I read what Art has to contribute to the tech side, the more I realize that he knows his stuff and he can concisely cut through the crap. It is my theory that wrist positions, along with being over-bowed or having a too short draw-length, or all of the above, are possibly how the "bent-arm" method belief began. I also agree with Ragsdale.
However, other than how Art has explained why he personally needs to use a bent arm, and what degree of bend he uses, I wonder how many learning shooters or shooters wanting to try different methods, believe that some degree of bend in the bow is a must for proper shooting form, but do not know exactly how much bend they are suppose to have, and/or whether the bend is suppose to be horizontal or vertical?
Also, so far I don't believe I have read where anyone is being criticized for using a bent arm method.
07-21-2004, 08:27 PM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,072
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
c903, You are correct indeed. No, one is being critized here.
Draw length is the key to proper form. If you are too long it would be near impossible to keep the arm slightly bent. Too short and your arm will be too bent.
Also, if you are overbowed you will not be able to control your positioning to obtain the correct form. Too much energy will be spent holding the bow back in an inproper position.
Being too bent, it will be harder to find a constant anchor point , which is detrimental to consistant accuracy.
Too straight and you better have an arm guard.
Everyone will have a different preferance as to what end of the spectrum that they would like to go. A little bit of effort is required , but you will know when you find the sweet spot.
Draw length is the key to proper form. If you are too long it would be near impossible to keep the arm slightly bent. Too short and your arm will be too bent.
Also, if you are overbowed you will not be able to control your positioning to obtain the correct form. Too much energy will be spent holding the bow back in an inproper position.
Being too bent, it will be harder to find a constant anchor point , which is detrimental to consistant accuracy.
Too straight and you better have an arm guard.
Everyone will have a different preferance as to what end of the spectrum that they would like to go. A little bit of effort is required , but you will know when you find the sweet spot.
07-21-2004, 08:40 PM
#25
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
....and/or whether the bend is suppose to be horizontal or vertical?
Try this- directly to your left direction (for RH shooter) hold up your hand in the flat palm "STOP indication" mannerism at full arm's length. Now slowly bring your hand towards your shoulder/face and notice which direction your elbow naturally wants to go. It's close to a 30* down and left for me- but everyone will be a little different. Try to bring your hand in and have your elbow bend only vertically (straight down), it is very unnatural and awkward. Same thing for having your elbow bend in the purely horizontal.
Your "natural" elbow bend direction is where you'll be the most comfortable (and repeatable). If you have to "force" into a form position, there's no way you'll be able to accurately do it time after time after time....
07-21-2004, 09:04 PM
#26
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 881
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
Randy Ulmer
That is the proper amount to bend the elbow. If you want to fight with Randy Ulmer. Good luck
That is the proper amount to bend the elbow. If you want to fight with Randy Ulmer. Good luck
07-21-2004, 10:17 PM
#27
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
I see, ewolf, but I do not see an exaggerated bend in bow-arm and the question remains: "How bent is bent?" I believe that Art P has somewhat defined it (degree of bend) when he said "…soft bend," as has Ragsdale.
There are shooters that do not understand that the bend that is recommended is the natural bending (cracking) that occurs when you rotate your elbow outboard and do not over-extend your bow arm. However, not all do. Some shooters believe you exaggerate the bend to get their bow-arm and clothing away from the oncoming string, compensate for short draw-length, compensate for over-bowed, etc; and the method is correct form. That is "adaptation."
There are shooters that do not understand that the bend that is recommended is the natural bending (cracking) that occurs when you rotate your elbow outboard and do not over-extend your bow arm. However, not all do. Some shooters believe you exaggerate the bend to get their bow-arm and clothing away from the oncoming string, compensate for short draw-length, compensate for over-bowed, etc; and the method is correct form. That is "adaptation."
07-21-2004, 10:25 PM
#28
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
That is the proper amount to bend the elbow.
It is a mistake to take a picture of one guy's form, no matter how good he shoots, point your finger at the picture and say "that's how it's done." I remember seeing a pic of a world class archer who kept his elbow hyperextended, bent backwards, when he shot. Not something I would want to duplicate, even if my elbow COULD bend that way. (Ouch![:-])
A smart shooter takes care to observe what the champions are doing and, rather than trying to duplicate their style, tries to adopt parts of their technique that will work within his own personal shooting style. Personal shooting style is always based on the shooter's individual physical capbilities and limitations.
Besides, if we could all shoot as well as Randy Ulmer simply by copying his form, the man would be out of a job.[8D]
07-22-2004, 05:23 AM
#30
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Straight bow-arm vs. Bent bow-arm
This Swedish archer has a less than straight arm. From what I hear, he's very good.
Each person has to find out what works best for them. This can take a bit of experimentation and a ton of practice. By the way, I agree that a slightly bent arm is an advantage when hunting .
Each person has to find out what works best for them. This can take a bit of experimentation and a ton of practice. By the way, I agree that a slightly bent arm is an advantage when hunting .