JeffB

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Maybe He could get a sling for it?.....or a tripod <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

Or someone to carry it for him?

JeffB

PABowhntr

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Maybe He could get a sling for it?.....or a tripod <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Or someone to carry it for him?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>

.....or someone to just take it off of his hands altogether.....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>...yeah, uhha, my name isn't Bubba...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

(no offense to anybody actually named bubba <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)

Well, I just talked to the local dealer...no Bowtechs showed up today.....so &quot;Daddy&quot; will just have to continue waiting. <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>....but I will be calling Saturday morning.....just in case...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

I am still going to give the Gen 3.2 some serious consideration. Sag....I thought you were all into the Merlins now....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I have to tell you guys this decision making/bow buying stuff is a real pain in the butt. It was so much easier when my biggest decision was which Hoyt model to go with each year....now I have to worry about which model from any brand to choose....

....arrggghhhh...<img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>


Edited by - PABowhntr on 02/21/2002 13:17:37

moonge

ok guys, I understand a lot of guys really like the bowtechs but I really don't see what the big deal is about this bow. nothing that hasn't been done before. just a bit more limb angle than the Pro 38 or 40, mathews q2XL, champion contender, etc.

It does look like a nice bow but not any better than one made by all the other companies....I guess my question is what makes it such a hot bow?

Sagittarius

Frank,

Yeah, thinking about getting a Nova with Max2000 cams, after talking with Rob by email, but what's wrong with being interested in or buying two bows at once, lol.


Sag.

PABowhntr

Moonge,

I don't know yet...I will let you know on Saturday...hopefully.

If you are asking me to guess for the rest of the folks I would probably say that the bow is attractive because it possesses many of the same fine characteristics of something like the Q2 but with a faster arrow....simply put that is.

Sag.,

No, there is nothing wrong with wanting two new bows....I have that problem right now myself...

moonge

ywp PABowhntr I just want to know what all the hype about this bow is! we have no dealers around here but from the picture it looks like a Q2Xl rip off with a bit more limb angle. it is an attractive bow, too bad it's not about 38-40&quot; ATA

JeffB

Moonge,

That's a loaded question..And I'm going to give you my opinion and some factual information based on my experiences w/both Mathews and Bowtech lines and the Patriot in particular. I'm opening up myslef for flames, but really I have no malice to Mathews or their bows. Mathews owners please don't take this as a personal insult to your choice in equipment, OK?

To get their designs to the level of quietness and lack of recoil that they have, Mathews has had to sacrifice raw performance(i.e speed). Each year the various Q series bows get slower and slower, w/ a less significant positive difference in &quot;feel&quot;. I have owned in the past 5 years an Mq32, a MQ1, Two Q2's, a Q2XL, A Rival Pro and 2 Conquests(along w/ a Zmax). All considered to be the &quot;best feeling&quot; and/or &quot;best shooters&quot; in the Mathews line. The Conquest had good performance compared to it's competition due to it's higher energy storage w/ the original max-cam. The MQ1 a bit less, and the Q2 and Q2 XL even less(and the SL2 cam was made a bit stiffer to draw compared to the original SL cam to compensate for speed loss). Comparitively the MQ32 is faster than the SQ2, again w/ little difference in recoil and vibration, and as far as I'm concerned the MQ32 is the quietest bow Mathews has ever made.

Mathews &quot;long riser, short limb&quot; and parallel limb designs were not new when they started using them. Other companies like HCA and XI had been experimenting sucessfully w/ those ideas before. The thing was the other manufacturers were not so willing to sacrifice performance. Mathews came up w/ a great cam, and then for some reason decided to execute an odd strategy: Instead of improving the perfomance level of single cam technology while trying to minimize recoil and noise(as they did in 97 w/ the original Maxcam) they decided to go backwards for 98 and beyond. It's not hard to make a quiet low recoil bow, but it IS hard to make one that shoots w/ great speed.

The Straightline cams themselves are another issue: They have no draw length adjustment,are very sensitive to out of time conditions, and are extremely sensitve to even a minute amount of creep. The only advantage they really have is a smoother easier draw vs. the standard Maxcam styles. But to get the speed back up, you have to pull more poundage. My Q2XL w/ the same measured draw length at the same poundage was 15 FPS slower than my Conquest at IBO arrow weights with little difference in recoil and noise (and a 1/8&quot; difference in brace height). To get the speeds similar on the XL I would have to keep arrow weight the same and pull 6-8 Lbs more draw weight (and dropping the arrow weight 30 to 40 grains below the minimum 5 grs per LB).

In my experience, both as a one time Mathews dealer (one of the original handful in the country) as well as a consumer, I have seen a consistent drop in quality control and fit and finish. In the mid 90's you'd be hard pressed to find a bow built as tightly as a Mathews, especially at the very reasonable prices they charged then. As the line took off in 1997, things started to change. My last 5 mathews bows have had poor limb sanding,very poor limb to pocket,and pocket to riser fit, as well as space on the axles. 2 of those bows also had poor machining in either the cams or riser (my Rival Pro had several gouges in riser where it connects with the pocket, and my Q2XL's top limb stuck out the base of the pocket 1/2&quot; instead of flush.

As far as speed is concerned I could care less how fast the bow is if the bow is not forgiving or is hard to shoot. Please read that statement again, because I mean that sincerely.

As far as the BT line in general is concerned, they are built w/ a very high quality fit and finish, and use higher grade materials like the bronze cam bushings,higher quality bearings in the idlers, WC strings, etc. The Infinity cam allows draw length adjustment without throwing the cam out of time (albeit it changes the letoff). Historically they are faster, though louder and more jumpy, which is understandable w/ the speed gain, and it's equally understandable why many archers will trade less speed for a less stiff cam or less recoil/shock.

Now with the Patriot in particular, recoil and shock levels are approaching the levels of the Q series bows, with about 15-20 FPS extra speed. Now for those who don't care for speed, you still have 2 advantages: You can shoot 7-10 Lbs less draw weight than you would on the slower bow, or you can bump your arrow weight up 100 grains or so and get quite a bit more K.E. Both of these options accomplish something similar: they make the bow shoot quieter & w/ less recoil and shock. Take a 60 LB bow at 5 grains per Lb and shoot the identical model at 70/5. That 60 Lber will be less jumpy, and quieter than the 70 Lber (along w/ being easier to draw). The added mass of the arrow needs no explanation.

Now that doesn't mean that Mathews sucks, or so does everyone else...There are alot fine bows out there. Last year my Q2 was my #1 bow...I even sold it like an idiot and had to buy another come hunting season. Took a nice deer on Thanksgiving morning with it. It's very quiet, accurate, and has little to no recoil. It's a dandy hunting bow. As far as performance goes apples to apples (spec-wise) w/ other bows in my collection, it's either below average, or compared to some ,quite frankly, &quot;a dog&quot;. Doesnt mean it won't kill a deer just as dead as any other bow on the market..just giving the facts here.

Some folks will argue that the tolerances don't matter..that's a whole other debate for another time. However, in my case, If I'm going to spend $650 on a bow (and that is what Q2's and Q2XL's run in my area, along w/ the Patriots, MM's and other BT models) I'd rather spend my money on a bow that was put together better, w/ higher quality components regardless of the performance gain. when you add in the extra 15-20 FPS w/ no loss in accuracy, IMO it's a no brainer. I can slow it down w/ heavier arrows, or pull less weight to get the same results in noise and recoil.

Now, I could care less if the bow had the name Bowtech, Merlin,PSE, Martin, Hoyt, Mathews, Parker, Jennings or whatever on the limbs. I've owned, and sold a lot of bows..And while I have my favorites, there's not a company on the market that doesn't make at least one bow I would like to own, and there's not one company on the market that could not improve or do things better, including Bowtech(they really need to work on thier grips).

This year the Patriot is &quot;hot&quot; because it has sucessfully combined high speeds with a very comfortable shot. Usually you have to sacrifice one for the other.

Basically you can ignore my post and just read what Frank said, again

JeffB

Matt / PA

Yeah......what Jeff said! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Actually yeah really!......I got a chance to remember why I'm getting a Patriot again tonight.
Shot a 29&quot; @67lb bow that a guy just bought (well actually ordered like last year sometime.....man is this bow in demand)
Anyway......it was set up with a Doinker Stabilizer , String Leeches and a NAP Quiktune 3000 and some funky sight I didn't care for too much......but besides that the bow IS awesome.
I had previously shot a 60# model......this one felt pretty much the same at the shot in spite of it's 7# heavier draw weight setting.
Still stinkin' quiet and so smooth......it REALLY has that dead fall away &quot;Target Bow Tumble&quot;.....there is no &quot;Upward&quot; single cam thrust or kick. It just goes off and falls away.
It's so sweet it's almost mesmerizing.
I didn't get to chrono it as his chrono is on the fritz, but it's clipping them out there......I shot a few of my 343gr &quot;Fat Shafts&quot; thru it and they shoot like butter.
God is this thing smooth......and has a feel unlike ANY bow I've ever shot.
I'm having seperation anxiety as we speak.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

On another note I got a set of #60lb limbs put on my Pro38 Dual Cam (thanks to Vic AKA: &quot;500fps&quot......Got em' Vic!....thank you , they shoot VERY nice. 62# peak weight(I put em' on the scale) draw is smooth as silk and QUIET!!! I can't believe the difference between my old 70# limbs turned down to 65# VS. a 60# bottomed out at 62#.
For only a 3# difference in draw weight they feel completely different.....more solid feeling, quieter, less jump. I know that you always hear about how a bow shoots it's best at peak weight......it was neat to finally be able to compare it on the same bow.
Not sure of what speeds it will shoot but it's still pretty sick.......I may stick with the 343gr shafts at that 62# weight as it seemed to really like them.

One other interesting thing......I got a set of BowTech &quot;Vibrablocks&quot; put on the new limbs......and found exactly the opposite of what BowTech did with respect to placement.
For me they felt, and sounded better on the RISER end of the limbs!.......and better yet I moved them inch by inch up the limb to the set of Limbsavers already installed on these limbs from Vic. As I got closer to the &quot;Limbsavers&quot; it got smoother and quieter(it was actually noticible with each move) The smoothest placement I found thru trying EVERY spot is about 1/8&quot; from touching the &quot;Limbsavers&quot; on the RISER end of the limbs.....(meaning the flat outer edge of the Vibrablock 1/8&quot; from the outer rim of the Limbsaver &quot;mushroom&quot They might actually collide at the shot but I'd never be able to tell without some serious camera equipment.
Looks sort of goofy, but it REALLY works well.....much better than the Limbsavers by themselves. This one wasn't one of those &quot;I think I can tell a difference?&quot; numbers.......it's quite noticible.
Not too concerned about how it looks because it works and works well......and I'm not worried about any potential speed loss.......I got speed to burn!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I got my 3D rig well on it's way to the up and coming season......Now I just need to try one of those AEP stabilizers &quot;Saggitarius&quot; likes so much, and maybe play with a few different arrow/ weight combinations.

And of course the wait until April for my next Hunting bow......THE PATRIOT!!<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
I wish I could just rip the entire month of March right off my calendar right now.

Ossage

I think you said it all Jeff. My only observation is that as a mostly buyer of Mathews' target bows (Signature, Rival Pro, MQ, C2, I haven't seen the fall-off in quality you note. Appart from the weird colours last year, with the risers bearing no relationship to the promo literature, the C2 i had was the nicest bow, and the most accurate bow of theirs I have shot. All I care about is where the arrow goes, and on that count my C2 is awesome. A lot of the fit issues we think mater may not, but whether Mathews is doing anything that does mater that we aren't measuring, I don't know. I am talking about stuff that might get the bow working better dynamicly. Bows aren't rifles, and the kind of lock it up tight stuff that works with them, may not matter here. I don't know if there is anything in this new Spot Hogg research, but it could prove that linear return is more important than tightness for instance.

I was asking the speed question on the Legacy days ago because, like you, I wondered Mathews keep making slower bows. I just figure they don't think speed pays with the current shooters and targets. If it is the case that top shooter can make yardage to within half a yard out to current maximums, then speed doesn't matter all that much. Maybe I should just hang on to my mint Oasis, and wait for it to come back in style.

On the Patriot, it is the first bow I have seen in a while that really seems to take us somewhere we haven't been before. For instance consider the small limb movement, that can be a really good feature shooting in bush. The speed matters to me just because I can spend it where I want to.

Can anyone out there answer my previous question, please: If I buy a Patriot, what draw length should I order to get the same draw I get with a 30&quot; Mathews? I hear so many rumours about &quot;differences&quot;. Is the draw length on a Patriot adjustible?

Zippernut

Yes the Patriot is adjustable. It utilizes 1&quot; modules and the infinity cam also has the fine tuning ablility with the draw stop. I have been told that the draw lengths are right on this year but haven't received any 2002 bows yet.