NEW BOW
02-03-2004, 06:01 AM
#23
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: NEW BOW
Rangeball-
Yes, 18 strands is "standard", but remember that 8125 is very small diameter. While faster, yes, Merlin and myself both like a "soft shot" while still maintaining competitive speed-- especially with hunting equipment---it makes no difference if you are doing 290 or 340 when the arrow passes thru a deer at 20-40 yds, but what DOES matter is the noise associated with the bow, and the chance of that animal jumping the string! (DOH![:@]) Merlin has decided that flat-out speed is totally secondary to producing a quiet shot while hunting. Merlin DOES install 18 strands of 8125 of some of their lower-poundage and drawlength bows, and this is fine, but when you get up there in speed, drawlength, and poundage, it is always best to make the experience as enjoyable as it can be, and that is not done by seeing how fast it can go through a chrono--- because 20 fps one way or the other simply doesn't matter and you'll never be able to see the difference in your pins anyway at normal hunting distances.
String material has come a long ways since the days or Fast Flight and Streamline, but the overwhelming issue that remains apparrent even today is that the string MUST has a bit of "give" to it, otherwise over time the shock beats the snot out of other components, and warranty issues arise. That is why many if not most manufactuers are now sliding over again towards more forgiving and quiet bows, especially for hunting. Throwing an extra "loop" of material (going from 18 to 20 strands) helps with this. Look around, everywhere you look the bows are now getting rounder cams, increased brace heights, and generally quieter dispositions. If speed was such a big deal to people, bows such as the BK2 would've had a more significant impact and been bought by everyone. In reality, serious hunters could care less about that at normal ranges except in that the speed needs to be competitive and capable of downing game effectively. All bows today are capable of that.
Fast flight had "give" to it, (too much some say) but everyone wanted faster still, so out came Streamline, which was some nasty stuff IMO. I saw more bows blow up with Streamline on them than virtually any other material ever used to date. That is why you hardly see it around anymore. To be fair it was also during the time when everyone was shooting 90lb bows and throwing 200grain arrows too.......[:@]
8125 is a small diameter, but stilll offers a bit of "give"--and when you throw 20 strands instead of 18, it produces a quieter shot. All depends on what you are looking for, but the bottom line is this--
IF Merlin wanted to produce a "smoking" bow, we could certainly acheive that as it is very simple. It is MUCH tougher to produce a bow that is super-quiet, offers NO vibration and handshock at the shot, and yet still offers competitive speeds. We have effectively designed that into the Max-Xtreme. If you want to take that design, and make it more noisy by dropping strands, that is your choice, but for a hunting rig I have to ask----WHY?[
]
Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Yes, 18 strands is "standard", but remember that 8125 is very small diameter. While faster, yes, Merlin and myself both like a "soft shot" while still maintaining competitive speed-- especially with hunting equipment---it makes no difference if you are doing 290 or 340 when the arrow passes thru a deer at 20-40 yds, but what DOES matter is the noise associated with the bow, and the chance of that animal jumping the string! (DOH![:@]) Merlin has decided that flat-out speed is totally secondary to producing a quiet shot while hunting. Merlin DOES install 18 strands of 8125 of some of their lower-poundage and drawlength bows, and this is fine, but when you get up there in speed, drawlength, and poundage, it is always best to make the experience as enjoyable as it can be, and that is not done by seeing how fast it can go through a chrono--- because 20 fps one way or the other simply doesn't matter and you'll never be able to see the difference in your pins anyway at normal hunting distances.
String material has come a long ways since the days or Fast Flight and Streamline, but the overwhelming issue that remains apparrent even today is that the string MUST has a bit of "give" to it, otherwise over time the shock beats the snot out of other components, and warranty issues arise. That is why many if not most manufactuers are now sliding over again towards more forgiving and quiet bows, especially for hunting. Throwing an extra "loop" of material (going from 18 to 20 strands) helps with this. Look around, everywhere you look the bows are now getting rounder cams, increased brace heights, and generally quieter dispositions. If speed was such a big deal to people, bows such as the BK2 would've had a more significant impact and been bought by everyone. In reality, serious hunters could care less about that at normal ranges except in that the speed needs to be competitive and capable of downing game effectively. All bows today are capable of that.
Fast flight had "give" to it, (too much some say) but everyone wanted faster still, so out came Streamline, which was some nasty stuff IMO. I saw more bows blow up with Streamline on them than virtually any other material ever used to date. That is why you hardly see it around anymore. To be fair it was also during the time when everyone was shooting 90lb bows and throwing 200grain arrows too.......[:@]
8125 is a small diameter, but stilll offers a bit of "give"--and when you throw 20 strands instead of 18, it produces a quieter shot. All depends on what you are looking for, but the bottom line is this--
IF Merlin wanted to produce a "smoking" bow, we could certainly acheive that as it is very simple. It is MUCH tougher to produce a bow that is super-quiet, offers NO vibration and handshock at the shot, and yet still offers competitive speeds. We have effectively designed that into the Max-Xtreme. If you want to take that design, and make it more noisy by dropping strands, that is your choice, but for a hunting rig I have to ask----WHY?[
] Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
02-03-2004, 06:35 AM
#24
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Yorkville, IL
Posts: 423
RE: NEW BOW
Well Pinwheel, have you ever used or seen any of the Wayne Newberry's strings, he uses a material very similar to the BCY 8125 called Ultracam, if so about the 18 strands, how many should be in a string for a Mathews LX??
02-03-2004, 07:04 AM
#25
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: NEW BOW
JeffK-
I'm not familiar with Newberry Strings other than I have heard of him.
Ultracam has a "standard" recommendation minimum of 16 strands, but I would think 18 would be more sufficient due to it's very small diameter. I do not know how many strands Mathews puts into their LX--everyone is different when it comes to this. I only know what we recommend. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
I'm not familiar with Newberry Strings other than I have heard of him.
Ultracam has a "standard" recommendation minimum of 16 strands, but I would think 18 would be more sufficient due to it's very small diameter. I do not know how many strands Mathews puts into their LX--everyone is different when it comes to this. I only know what we recommend. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
02-03-2004, 01:10 PM
#27
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Kansas
Posts: 316
02-03-2004, 02:49 PM
#28
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: NEW BOW
But sadly, some manufacturers do just that anyway. Remember--for every strand of material you drop, you pick up anywhere from 3-6 fps! Couple that with paper thin cams,(lighter is faster, but no very durable) pre-stressed limbs, (which will fail much sooner) and other little known "speed enhancing tricks", and you are soon shooting much higher speeds than the competition. Run drawlengths a little longer than aMO, and gain a few more fps. Unfortuanately, all it is is alot of smoke and mirrors, and you ALWAYS pay for high speed because of what has to be done to gain it.
I completely agree! Not only that, but most manufacturers give you the illusion of more speed by "stretching the truth" on the specs of the bow. For comparison sakes, we need truth in advertising and we need bow reports to accurately measure these descrepancies and report on them.
02-04-2004, 07:31 AM
#29
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: NEW BOW
Straightarrow-
Yep, I hear ya on that! I wish the industry would come up with a set "standard of testing" across the board--- for instance CORRECT AMO drawlengths, comparable mass weights, Brace heights, and ATA's--seperating bows tested into a handful of sub-categories based on their comparable differences---- also minimum number of strands of string material. Tests done on the bow would consist of-- Tolerances and quality of craftsmanship, Speed with various arrow weights, Efficiency, SE/PF Ratio, Hysteresis, Draw force curve, how quiet, (decible meter), how much vibration, handshock, recoil, ovarall handling, and fit and finish. ALL bows independently tested at the same facility each year, in exactly the same enviroment, utilizing the same machines and formulas, by the same testers who must not be affiliated to any company in any way. (or greased by them[8D])
Really, how hard would that be to do? Answer--Not very!
BUT, you'd certainly be surprised at the results if this were to ever be done--this I guarantee!
Maybe someday. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Yep, I hear ya on that!
I wish the industry would come up with a set "standard of testing" across the board--- for instance CORRECT AMO drawlengths, comparable mass weights, Brace heights, and ATA's--seperating bows tested into a handful of sub-categories based on their comparable differences---- also minimum number of strands of string material. Tests done on the bow would consist of-- Tolerances and quality of craftsmanship, Speed with various arrow weights, Efficiency, SE/PF Ratio, Hysteresis, Draw force curve, how quiet, (decible meter), how much vibration, handshock, recoil, ovarall handling, and fit and finish. ALL bows independently tested at the same facility each year, in exactly the same enviroment, utilizing the same machines and formulas, by the same testers who must not be affiliated to any company in any way. (or greased by them[8D])Really, how hard would that be to do? Answer--Not very!
BUT, you'd certainly be surprised at the results if this were to ever be done--this I guarantee!
Maybe someday.
Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
02-05-2004, 08:10 AM
#30
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 20
RE: NEW BOW
ORIGINAL: jmac_or
Let's see if I beat Pinwheel on this one.
http://www.merlin-bows.co.uk/
Enjoy,
JMAC
Let's see if I beat Pinwheel on this one.
http://www.merlin-bows.co.uk/
Enjoy,
JMAC
Thanx! I just eyeballed the Vision as it seems to be in my budget range, looks and reads pretty sharp. If I understood it right the stock Rapid 2's cams would fit my needs just about right on IBO speeds etc. May take a bit more effort to tune, if I understand the "One-cam hype" in the mags, but I think I can handle it.
PT Hunter