PABowhntr

Yeah, he has been a slacker lately, hasn't he?

Straightarrow

Pinwheel, this doesn't make complete sense to me. If they were that far apart, how could a pro compete with it? Another pro would trounce them with the clearly superior system. However, a pro seems to be able to win with whatever they use. This suggests it's the shooter, not the cam type that determines how easy it is to get an arrow in the right spot.

To further my point, I'll use Mathews as an example. Their cams supposedly have straight and level nock travel. With a properly made string, creep and stretch is not the problem it once was. How bad can it be? Are you saying all singles are bad or just some? I'm sure some bad singles have been made (okay, many bad singles). However, that doesn't mean that their are no good ones. I've seen far more problems with guys shooting twins, that weren't timed and they had no clue how to do it or even that it needed doing.

I personally don't believe any amount of advertising would get such a huge percentage of archers using a Mathews single cam if they were clearly inferior.

pdq 5oh

Straightarrow:
I'm not so sure about that statement. Not to say Mathews are inferior, they are not. But there are plenty of other bows as well made that don't sell the numbers Mathews do. Why is that? In a word, ADVERTISING. Joe Whoever walks into a shop to buy a bow, maybe his first. He sees banners with Mathews wins all the IBO shoots. Hmmm, that's the bow for me. It wins all the shoots. Right next to the LX is a brand X that has similar specs, but hybrid cams. He picks up the LX, he saw the banners. Maybe he even read the magazines. Some people are much more susceptible to advertising than we think.

Straightarrow

Phil,

I agree that advertising will get a good product more sales, but a product that is clearly inferior will be found out. For instance, let's set up a company that produces an older style twin cam that mirrors one of 10 years ago in looks, feel and sound. It may shoot okay, but it will be loud, full of vibration and recoil. Now, lets spend 50 million dollars in advertising (absolutely blowing Mathews away in this department). We will advertise more then 10 times as much as they do. Think we'll sell very many?

Pinwheel 12

SA-

I shot conventional solos for three years on staff and watched my scores drop considerably when directly compared to shooting my twins, and my current hybrids shoot even better still. Top Touring Pros can win with anything, especially when they are paid well to do so--- so that holds little water IMHO, but it is interesting that many choose to shoot the OLDER conventional solo models!? I've found cam rotation is critical on many solos, so is holding with them-- if you creep one iota with some, you throw a flyer because there is only one cam controlling everything. Limbtip travel is also often not parallel, and some of the bows become "jumpy" also due to this. Some of them admittedly CAN be made to have straight and level nock travel, but there are simply too many variables to contend with IMO and you cannot offer modularly adjustable or drawlength adjustments on the cam and get it at all drawlengths with them-- you must go with a differing radius independant cam size for each specific drawlength setting when dealing with a true round idler on top, and even this has too many variables that come into play to warrant exacting specs with each bow. This individual drawlength cam stuff is not cost effective for consumers, especially when it comes to the fact that only a few companies offers a "standard" in drawlength and thus many differ greatly from company to company. This greatly increase the chance that one may need a different cam size should they measure incorrectly. With modules it is a simply $10 swap, with specific cams it is $100. And dealing with longer strings that could stretch when there is no need, etc etc etc the list just gets longer, and I've been over this a million times anyway and am really tired of it so this will be my last post on this subject... Bottom line--There is now a better mousetrap available IMHO.

I know many other top techs and manufacturers who believe the same thing, and soon there will be many more.. Up to you to believe what you wish. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

Straightarrow

If this bothers you, you shouldn't make statements such as the one below and expect everyone to accept it without question. I was only responding to your statement. Don't make it, if you expect no response.

If your posts are the last word on a subject, just say so, and don't respond to our inquiries. A superior hybrid cam has been available for years, yet you only came on-board when Merlin came out with one. [] Could it be money that motivates your opinions also? [:@]

500 fps

All I know is that I don't know.

Kevin,

I understand why you think that the Hybrid is superior to solos, but why to you prefer them to a well tuned twin? What advantage to they offer?

Pinwheel 12

Straightarrow-

Quote:

"Could it be that money motivates your opinions also?"

Now you're insinuating things you shouldn't be. No, I certainly have no problem discussing technical attributes of anything when it comes to Archery thanks unless I'm pressed for time, which I am.... but I do take jabs on my personal character quite seriously. I can assure you that altho I work for and promote the Merlin line, Merlin does in fact still offer twins, and only recently discarded conventional solocams. Being a tech of many years and having substantial "pull" with them, If I or the factory techs thought there were attributes of either that were technically better, believe me I'd still be using them and Merlin would still be selling them! I make my money from Merlin whether we build and sell Hybrids, twins, solos, recurves, or slingshots--so it makes no difference. Besides, for your info I am quite comfortable "money-wise" and money in itself is not a primary factor in my promotion of any products to begin with. I simply want to see and shoot the "perfect bow" before I'm gone, and we've got a ways to go IMO. Technically spinning in circles and chasing tails doesn't help to realize the dream unfortunately.

If you read back a few posts, you'll notice that I admitted to Len that it did indeed take me a bit to "come around" on the hybrid design. I think what you are insinuating about my character is uncalled for to be honest just because I may or may not agree with your preferences. I never expected such from you to be honest.

And--be fully aware that I will respond however I wish and no-one will tell me how I should act or speak on any messageboard because of that, especially when I abide by the rules. Opinions and debates of equipment are fine and healthy but let's leave personal digs out of it please-- I'm not calling the "last word" for anyone other than myself when I state my comments as mentioned above, so feel free to debate, but please don't put words in my mouth or insinuate things that are just not true about anyones' personal character. Thanks. Pinwheel 12

Pinwheel 12

Vic-

I will get into this more when I get back from the ATA, but to quickly touch on it as I stated many times recently-- Hybrids are Easier to tune, offer pure straight and level nock travel (not just straight like twins) quieter, set it, forget it, and capable of a wider range of spine due to the better nock travel. More forgiving.

As stated, there is nothing wrong with twins and I backed them for over 25 years---still a great system.

One should shoot what they feel the most comfortable with, but keep an open mind and always try new things too. Gotta run....Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

Straightarrow

Pinwheel.

Relax! That was not meant as a dig at your character. In my opinion, we are all motivated by money (or at least 99% of us). No big deal there. As a Merlin rep, I expect you to be biased, just as Jim Despart is when we talk Martins (he has some great arguments supporting the Fury-x cam), and the Mathews Reps are, whom I've spoken with. I'm not saying you don't believe what you're saying. However, when I see descrepancies or statements that just don't make sense, I like talking about it. If the hybrid is clearly superior, then you should have been on the band wagon a long time ago. If it's just a tiny bit better, then I understand why it might take awile to figure that out. You were every bit as adament about twin cams just a short while ago. Maybe you are wrong now, or maybe you were wrong then. I don't know which it is. I'm just curious how one can be distinctly better then another without the archery world acknowledging this.

As for your experience, you may be right about the solos (or at least the ones you've thoroughly tested). Or, maybe the difference wasn't the cam. It might have been poor limb alignment, axels that weren't drilled perpendicular, a poor brace height/ ata combination, some bad strings, poor grip, etc. I've seen pro shooters who say nock travel is not a big deal when shooting a known distance with field tips. They would argue that great arrows are 100 times more important. Maybe it was just the single cams that you were shooting at the time. Heck, maybe you were in a shooting slump. Anecdotal evidence is not proof of anything.

I do know it would be difficult to make blanket statements about solos when there are so many and they're constantly evolving. Take a look at Proline's new cam. Level nock travel at all draw lengths and adjustable. Can you really be so sure that none of these solos are every bit as good as these hybrids? By the way, string stretch is not a consideration when using a quality tied string with decent vectran content - as least I haven't found it to be. The point is, many others, closely associated with a bow company have good arguements to support their cam of choice.

To me, it isn't clear cut. I shoot better with my solos then with any bow I've ever had (over 30 years of shooting bows that were not solos). Are they clearly better then the hybrids? Don't know, I've shot hybrids less then 500 shots, so I can't say. Certainly, there's been nothing that's jumped out at me, with the ones I've shot. In fact, I'm betting my next bow will have a hybrid cam, but I'm not expecting any drastic improvement in shooting. And if there is, I'll suspect that it has to do with areas other then the cam.