BB9

I am glad Mr. Parks came on and further explained his opinions from the test. I want to learn from people on this site who have their own opinions and can share them without being hammered. Don't turn this in to other sites where if you don't speak possitively about a sponsor you get bashed.

ampahunter

Subjective, bias, impartial, constructive, bragging, technical, & 'winner'--only to name a few. Words all used at one time or another, in response to the Liberty vs Diablo, head to head 12 round card.
All reasons why I visit this board---only this time I couldn't leave without saying 'THANKS' to all the guys who have contributed to this very interesting artcile.
I have truly enjoyed reading the tests on the comparison and the replies, especially those of Straightarrow, Highbow and Broker.
A fine engagement.

pdq 5oh

Straightarrow,
Sorry about the goof. Look at round 1. Speed was given points.

Because as I said earlier, the speed will determine the KE. So again I say, you are giving credit for the same thing twice. Just giving it a different name. I'd say since either bow will kill anything in North America, efficiency is more important. What do you get, for what you give. Round 6, in round numbers: Diablo 95# in, got 72# out. Liberty 84# in, got 67# out. 10# more energy to draw only resulted in 5# more KE. Which would you rather pull back on a cold day after sitting for hours?

Re: shock (vibration? or recoil?)
Not sure which you're refering to here but, a Patriot Dually stores more energy than the Dialbo, and would smoke it thru the chrono. And I'll bet would have less "shock". This due mostly to design (parallel limbs in part). Mass weight will also play a part here. BTW, the Liberty was nearly 1/2 lb lighter. The two bows being compared were of differing designs, hence, one had less "shock". But I will agree, apples to apples, less stored energy will result in less "shock".

True. But it does give people a chance to decide if they want to shoot a particular bow. If ten people say their hand hurts after a few shots with a certain bow, it's possible yours may, too. It may be that someone has to drive two hours to shoot a bow, maybe more. This could save some wasted time. What I'm wondering is if this test was done by ten of the top pros, would you take it more seriously. I didn't see anything to indicate the testers were newbies. Take what they say in, and draw your own conclusions. As to shooting a bow being the best way to determine what's best for you, that's true. So why not read the technical stuff and blow off the subjective parts? I for one listen to people's opinions and use them as part of the decision making process. I feel it gives me a place to start.

Straightarrow

I don't want to appear obstinate, but I can not find this anywhere in section one. Section 1 does not give points for speed or kinetic energy that I can see. It compares actual speed with manufacturer's claimed speed and gives credit if it's the same. It doesn't give credit for the bow putting out the most energy. Maybe you could copy the section that refutes this and show me.


This is certainly debatable. There are many reasons why I might want more speed or KE. You cannot presume my use of the bow, or my personal preferences. I may be going to Africa for my first Cape Buffalo hunt, and since I'm strong enough to easily pull back either on the coldest of days, I'd perfer the higher KE for my Cape Buffalo. In fact, I may just prefer it for my whitetails too. Nothing wrong with preferring higher KE. Certainly, bow speed or KE are deemed important by some archers. Why not give credit where one bow exceeds in this area?

In this test, Bowtech received credit for a quieter bow, even though the difference with string leeches would be undetectable by the human ear. Why shouldn't larger difference in KE matter?


Just that it would apply in most cases. There will be exceptions, but in general it follows this rule.


Absolutely not. I don't need a pro to tell me what looks good, or what feels good. I'm one who understands that pros are pros because of their ability, not the bow's. The best pros win, regardless of what brand they are shooting. Do you believe that is false? Why would a pro be more capable of determining which bow had less hand shock then I am? They are professional shooters, not profession hand shock evaluators. In fact, they could be a pro and not even have nerves in their hands. They might be incapable of feeling shock. I've seen way too many good shooters declare a bow had no shock, and then when I shot it for myself, I felt like I was shooting a tuning fork.

I do blow it off. I'm simply replying to those who declared Bowtech "the winner" and those who think that this subjective stuff has any real meaning when trying to determine which bow is best. Bows are used for many things and you would have to at least know what the intended purpose was before you could declare one better then the other. There are also dozens of reasons why a person will like or dislike a particular feature on a bow. That doesn't make that feature a poor one, just not suited for that individual. Bow reports should give us all the objective information they can and let each individual make their own subjective opinions.

I would also contend that there is no top end bow on the market that would be a waste of time for a person to drive a long distance to test. They all shoot good, they are all relatively quiet and fast. Whether any of them meet our own preferences will only be determined by actually holding and shooting them. Nineteen out of twenty testors could recommend a bow that, in your opinion, has a grip that sucks. You will never know that without holding and shooting it. The same hold true for how a bow holds, or how accurate you shoot with it.

Straightarrow

I thought I'd add a little more on why I think Hunter's Friend does subjective reports. I believe they are primarily a mailorder company. They have to make up their customer's mind for them. If the potential customer, reading the bow report, goes to a bow shop to test one for themselves, they may very likely purchase it at the bow shop. They are serving their own sales methods by trying to convince people to buy without trying. I highly recommend against this. Trying first, is always better. I'm of the firm belief that other archer's opinions can help, but that they have no place in an objective bow report. A person should be able to look at all the technical data and narrow down which few bows they want to consider.

The only somewhat subjective part of this test that I liked, was the shooting test. Unfamiliar bows with unfamiliar setups, a real good test of forgiveness, in my opinion. All shooters are under the same disadvantages with each bow. With as many shooters as they had in this part of the test, the results should have some meaning. As they say, the proof in in the pudding, how well does a person shoot the bow.

silentassassin

I just got to this thread so I apologize if this has been covered. But Pinwheel do you not advocate tuning paradox into the arrow with a tail high tear?

Pinwheel 12

SA-

Yes, but paradox will initiate regardless, and if initiated with straight and level travel we can tune to what we wish to negate it that much quicker and in the direction we wish that offers the best forgiveness of an individual shooter. If it starts out high to begin with, we are limited in our direction and thus control of the paradox.. That is why a truly straight and level design on both the horizontal and vertical planes is more forgiving, simply because WE then have ultimate control over the paradox and can more easily tune it for best performance and accuracy on each setup. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

HighBow

Straightarrow, I think you might be surprised to find out just the oposite of thought you having on huntersfriend making up someones mind. The information is out there on all bows sold by huntersfriend.com, no they all weren't in the test, if you call and want to buy a Champion then you'll end up with a champion, if you want a PSE then you get a PSE. Try it sometime, you might be very surprised at what customer service is all about.

Straightarrow

Highbow,

Not at all what I was talking about. I wasn't implying they were purposely slanting the tests, or that people would be pushed into a particular brand. I was suggesting that because they are a mailorder company, they would prefer people do not go to their local bow shop to try and buy bows. They would prefer to convince their potential customers, with a great deal of subjective opinions, so the customer doesn't feel the need to go shoot one (any brand) for themselves. They want them to feel confident purchasing by mailorder.

I myself, own a mailorder buisness and that is what I do.

pdq 5oh

From round 1:

Liberty:
IBO Speed: (40) 304* fps 293.4 fps 3.487% 17.43% 33.03 .
Draw Length*: (20) 30" 30.375" 1.250% 6.25% 18.75 .
Let-Off: (10) 80% 71.1% 11.125% 55.63% 4.44
Physical Weight: (10) 3.875# 4.188# 8.077% 40.39% 5.96
Brace Height: (10) 7.5" 7.563" 0.840% 4.20% 9.58
A2A Length: (10) 33.25" 33.375" 0.376% 1.88% 9.81
81.57

Diablo:
IBO Speed: (40) 315 fps 304.7 fps 3.270% 16.35% 33.46
Draw Length*: (20) 30" 30.500" 1.667% 8.34% 18.33
Let-Off: (10) 80% 71.6% 10.500% 52.50% 4.75
Physical Weight: (10) 4.2 lbs. 4.625# 10.119% 50.60% 4.94
Brace Height: (10) 7.25" 7.188" 0.855% 4.28% 9.57
A2A Length: (10) 35.625 35.813 0.528% 2.65% 9.74
80.79

Straightarrow, As you can see, speed was factored into the final points in this round. As a matter of fact, it was given much more weight than anything else in round 1. Since KE (speed) seems to be THE thing you're most interested in, the Diablo is better, for you. I don't presume to know the intended use of your bow but, since I mentioned North America, what I said has plenty of merit. And 5# of KE is not going to make or break how well the bow does it's intended job. It would seem that 12% more work for 7% more energy is a negative return. And I doubt either bow, as tested, would be legal to hunt dangerous game in Africa.