I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
02-07-2002, 10:08 AM
#51
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Hey Frank,
I was just razzing you about ignoring my posts… and feel free to move my posts wherever it is most approriate.
As I said, I’m as surprised as you are. Perhaps the new Excel cam is more similar to the old Saber in more ways than one.
Don’t forget that those of us who are draw length challenged get a substantially different feel on adjustable cams than those who have the cam maxed out. You’ll notice on some cam designs and settings that the cable/string will bottom in the track before hitting the cable stop (depnding on design , letoff setting etc). Oftentimes for shorter draw length shooters the cable will hit the stop w/out the luxury of having the extra reinforcement of the track as well.
Again, the amount of “play” (for lack of better word) is very small, but is noticeable in Hoyt cams at my draw length. Tug on a Mathew Conquest w/ a 28” standard Max cam, or a B/J PWCII w/ a 28 or 29” module, and you’ll feel what I’m talking about. You can put a bit too much pressure on the wall, and this can give you some those flyers.
As far as nock travel goes, I’ve had 3 reports on 2000 model G-3’s w/ the FM. One I witnessed, and 2 are reports from members here whom I consider quite knowledgeable and trustworthy (as would you). Those 2000 models did not have level nock travel. The new 2002 G3.2 and the FM has apparently been re-machined to insure that it does indeed have level nock travel. Don’t know otherwise. The Infinity/PF cam does not have level nock travel either (and BT makes no such claim), however I’m inclined to believe its minimal from the nocking point settings I need to get bullet holes.
Be that as it may, I was not necessarily discussing the amount of nock travel deviation, but rather the consistency of said deviation.
I find the Infinity/PF cams valley quite comfy and narrow at the same time. You have the feel of wider valley without having a wider valley. That’s what I mean by the “deep hole”. I’ve heard other folks who are not BT owners say the same: they love the way the PF cams “hold”. The valley on the Infinity cam does get narrow at below 65% letoff and is not as comfy, however there’s no “grey area”, you are either in or out, and you will know it.
If you happen to like High letoff (75%), you might want to stay w/ the standard PF cam, as the wall on the largest modules sizes is as hard as it gets for a non-limb stop design. But the Infinity cam is so much more fun to play with (amazingly, I’ve adjusted the letoff from 65 to 75 to 60 just to shoot the bow w/ different feels, and when I returned to the appx 65% position my sights were still dead on as before. The cam is quite consistent).
As far as speed on the ES, I know a fellow who was shooting an option 2 2000 model in the 320’s w/ a 31” module (5 grains). Even though the 2000 models ran long in draw length, the 2001/2002 models are getting the same or better speed w/ AMO draw lengths, due to the improvements made each year. My 29” MM shot 308 on the spec sheet, and shot 306 w/ loop, and tru-peep, and leeches close to the cam/idler). You can figure the same or better performance on the option 2 ES but add in about 15 to 20 FPS due to draw length and then you’ll need to compensate for heavier or lighter string stuff. (at 70 LBs.)
My 2000 model Option 2 w/ a 28 ¾” AMO draw(60LB peak 300 gr. arrow) shot the same speed as the spec sheet said w/ 1 brass nock: 296 FPS.
JeffB
I was just razzing you about ignoring my posts… and feel free to move my posts wherever it is most approriate.
As I said, I’m as surprised as you are. Perhaps the new Excel cam is more similar to the old Saber in more ways than one.
Don’t forget that those of us who are draw length challenged get a substantially different feel on adjustable cams than those who have the cam maxed out. You’ll notice on some cam designs and settings that the cable/string will bottom in the track before hitting the cable stop (depnding on design , letoff setting etc). Oftentimes for shorter draw length shooters the cable will hit the stop w/out the luxury of having the extra reinforcement of the track as well.
Again, the amount of “play” (for lack of better word) is very small, but is noticeable in Hoyt cams at my draw length. Tug on a Mathew Conquest w/ a 28” standard Max cam, or a B/J PWCII w/ a 28 or 29” module, and you’ll feel what I’m talking about. You can put a bit too much pressure on the wall, and this can give you some those flyers.
As far as nock travel goes, I’ve had 3 reports on 2000 model G-3’s w/ the FM. One I witnessed, and 2 are reports from members here whom I consider quite knowledgeable and trustworthy (as would you). Those 2000 models did not have level nock travel. The new 2002 G3.2 and the FM has apparently been re-machined to insure that it does indeed have level nock travel. Don’t know otherwise. The Infinity/PF cam does not have level nock travel either (and BT makes no such claim), however I’m inclined to believe its minimal from the nocking point settings I need to get bullet holes.
Be that as it may, I was not necessarily discussing the amount of nock travel deviation, but rather the consistency of said deviation.
I find the Infinity/PF cams valley quite comfy and narrow at the same time. You have the feel of wider valley without having a wider valley. That’s what I mean by the “deep hole”. I’ve heard other folks who are not BT owners say the same: they love the way the PF cams “hold”. The valley on the Infinity cam does get narrow at below 65% letoff and is not as comfy, however there’s no “grey area”, you are either in or out, and you will know it.
If you happen to like High letoff (75%), you might want to stay w/ the standard PF cam, as the wall on the largest modules sizes is as hard as it gets for a non-limb stop design. But the Infinity cam is so much more fun to play with (amazingly, I’ve adjusted the letoff from 65 to 75 to 60 just to shoot the bow w/ different feels, and when I returned to the appx 65% position my sights were still dead on as before. The cam is quite consistent).
As far as speed on the ES, I know a fellow who was shooting an option 2 2000 model in the 320’s w/ a 31” module (5 grains). Even though the 2000 models ran long in draw length, the 2001/2002 models are getting the same or better speed w/ AMO draw lengths, due to the improvements made each year. My 29” MM shot 308 on the spec sheet, and shot 306 w/ loop, and tru-peep, and leeches close to the cam/idler). You can figure the same or better performance on the option 2 ES but add in about 15 to 20 FPS due to draw length and then you’ll need to compensate for heavier or lighter string stuff. (at 70 LBs.)
My 2000 model Option 2 w/ a 28 ¾” AMO draw(60LB peak 300 gr. arrow) shot the same speed as the spec sheet said w/ 1 brass nock: 296 FPS.
JeffB
02-07-2002, 09:22 PM
#52
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Frank,
Wooohooo! Another "Matt / PA"!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
or maybe a "Matt / PAJr"?....
Speaking of names......that's BowTech with a CAPITAL "T" so that makes it an original idea!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
You know I never heard such a big guy whine over bow weight,Bow length, heavy draw force curves, sharp drop off's into fatiguing valleys.....geez Frank what are you 6'4" of porcelain?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
"I can't carry a 4lb bow.....it's just tooooooo HEAVYyyyyyyy"(in my best whiny typing)
"I don't want to hurt myself with a harsh draw cycle.......ouch......"
You could probably draw and shoot a 100lb Black Knight comfortably (heck you could probably bend a Black Knight in half!<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>)....and your torn over a 1/2lb and a few inches......WAAAAAAAAaaaaaaa!!!!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
What do you have like a 2 minute walk to your stand? I'll tell you what, you pick up a "Pro38" and I'll come and carry it to your stand for you. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Hehehehe.
Edited by - Matt / PA on 02/07/2002 23:18:36
Wooohooo! Another "Matt / PA"!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
or maybe a "Matt / PAJr"?....
Speaking of names......that's BowTech with a CAPITAL "T" so that makes it an original idea!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
You know I never heard such a big guy whine over bow weight,Bow length, heavy draw force curves, sharp drop off's into fatiguing valleys.....geez Frank what are you 6'4" of porcelain?<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
"I can't carry a 4lb bow.....it's just tooooooo HEAVYyyyyyyy"(in my best whiny typing)
"I don't want to hurt myself with a harsh draw cycle.......ouch......"
You could probably draw and shoot a 100lb Black Knight comfortably (heck you could probably bend a Black Knight in half!<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>)....and your torn over a 1/2lb and a few inches......WAAAAAAAAaaaaaaa!!!!!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
What do you have like a 2 minute walk to your stand? I'll tell you what, you pick up a "Pro38" and I'll come and carry it to your stand for you. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Hehehehe.
Edited by - Matt / PA on 02/07/2002 23:18:36
02-08-2002, 06:00 AM
#53
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Ok, I will take you up on that offer...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Alright, I am not whining.....but when I get a taste of the good life then why would I want to go back to a longer, heavier, stiffer to draw bow....just to gain 10 fps and some more kinetic energy that I already have more than enough of anyway?
90% of my shot opportunities are limited to 20-25 yards...with the other 10% being between 25-35. I haven't done trajectory comparisons between a bow shooting my setup at 275 as opposed to one shooting 285-290 but I can't believe that the difference would be significant especially at those distances.
Kinetic energy levels are really a moot point in my case. I am generating 70 ft. lbs of kinetic energy now....what do you want me to do..shoot 3 inch cutting diameter expandables so I need to up my kinetic energy level another 10 ft. lbs?<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Let me "turn the tables around" and ask you this......from a hunting standpoint why did you need to switch from that 31 inch axle to axle length-7.25 inch brace height bow that you were shooting with 80 ft. lbs of kinetic energy to a 38 inch axle to axle length bow with a 6.75 inch brace height that is generating 90 ft. lbs (? I forgot) of kinetic energy?
It isn't because you need more kinetic energy to open those expandables you are using...nor is it because of any flatter trajetory that you are going to get going from 319 fps to 336 fps.
So, in essence, you have gone to a longer bow with a shorter brace height to get an additional 17 fps, which from a practical point of view, doesn't make that much of a difference when we are comparing speeds at that end of the spectrum.
Matt..I am playing devil's advocate here and you know darn well that I never condemn anyone for their bow choices..
.........especially not in your case...since you have such fine taste, but I am trying to relate that all of this is a matter of perspective. I know you switched bows because you wanted something that would make you a little more competitive on the 3D scene.
A 10 fps increase is not substantial in my situation and the only way that number would change would be if I switched to a lower brace height bow or a lighter arrow or a heavier draw weight....all of which I could do but I don't see the need to. I have finally found a combination that works perfectly for me for hunting.
Something else to consider is the comparison in speeds between the two bows in question...the Extreme Solo and the Havoctec Versa. Given your estimations on speed...as well as Vic's I would gain roughly 10 fps with my current setup (using the 420 grain arrow) right? Ofcourse, they are just estimates but still.... Now, what is the IBO speed rating for the Extreme Solo with the Option 2 ....312-319? The Havoctec Versa's is 300 fps which is, obviously, 12-19 fps slower than the Extreme Solos.......Now I am only about 11 fps slower than the Havoctec's IBO speed with my setup.........but your estimates on speed could place me as much as 19 fps slower than the IBO speed for the Extreme Solo. Would that imply a higher efficiency rating for the Havoctec Versa even though its draw cycle doesn't help to store as much energy? Could that be because of the design/configuration of the riser/limbs? The materials used in the limbs, strings, etc??? Or something else?
So, if we tear this down even further we could surmise that the only difference between the two bows is the aggresiveness of the cam itself. If I were to put the original Redline 65% letoff cam on the Havoctec I would be willing to be that I could get 311-315 out of the bow at IBO specs. We compared a very similar situation last year with your Mighty Mite and my Havoc Redline. We were able to achieve roughly the same speeds because the one inch longer draw length I was using was roughly equivalent to the one inch shorter brace height you had on the Mighty Mite.
Jeff mentioned that Hoyt went in a direction different from the one he wanted to go in. Judging by his current choice in bows I would be willing to be that he felt Hoyt sacrificed performance in order to gain adjustability/marketability of their bows while reducing production costs....hence getting rid of the Redline cam, heavily pushing the Command Cams Plus and the Versacam...while still keeping the Saber/Excel cam for those few folks that still prefer a super soft drawing single cam.
Like him, I wish Hoyt would have redesigned one of the single cams to produce blistering speed...the new Redline that was introduced last year just doesn't do that with mid range brace height bows. Hopefully they will come up with something to remedy that for next year.....because that was also my only complaint for the 2002 lineup...they were all slower than last year's.
Ok, now we are going into a totally different area so I will stop....hope I didn't confuse, disappoint or tick you off.....I was just rather trying to related my point of view on this issue.
I am still going to go check some out this weekend....you convinced me enough to do that...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Alright, I am not whining.....but when I get a taste of the good life then why would I want to go back to a longer, heavier, stiffer to draw bow....just to gain 10 fps and some more kinetic energy that I already have more than enough of anyway?
90% of my shot opportunities are limited to 20-25 yards...with the other 10% being between 25-35. I haven't done trajectory comparisons between a bow shooting my setup at 275 as opposed to one shooting 285-290 but I can't believe that the difference would be significant especially at those distances.
Kinetic energy levels are really a moot point in my case. I am generating 70 ft. lbs of kinetic energy now....what do you want me to do..shoot 3 inch cutting diameter expandables so I need to up my kinetic energy level another 10 ft. lbs?<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Let me "turn the tables around" and ask you this......from a hunting standpoint why did you need to switch from that 31 inch axle to axle length-7.25 inch brace height bow that you were shooting with 80 ft. lbs of kinetic energy to a 38 inch axle to axle length bow with a 6.75 inch brace height that is generating 90 ft. lbs (? I forgot) of kinetic energy?
It isn't because you need more kinetic energy to open those expandables you are using...nor is it because of any flatter trajetory that you are going to get going from 319 fps to 336 fps.
So, in essence, you have gone to a longer bow with a shorter brace height to get an additional 17 fps, which from a practical point of view, doesn't make that much of a difference when we are comparing speeds at that end of the spectrum.
Matt..I am playing devil's advocate here and you know darn well that I never condemn anyone for their bow choices..
.........especially not in your case...since you have such fine taste, but I am trying to relate that all of this is a matter of perspective. I know you switched bows because you wanted something that would make you a little more competitive on the 3D scene.
A 10 fps increase is not substantial in my situation and the only way that number would change would be if I switched to a lower brace height bow or a lighter arrow or a heavier draw weight....all of which I could do but I don't see the need to. I have finally found a combination that works perfectly for me for hunting.
Something else to consider is the comparison in speeds between the two bows in question...the Extreme Solo and the Havoctec Versa. Given your estimations on speed...as well as Vic's I would gain roughly 10 fps with my current setup (using the 420 grain arrow) right? Ofcourse, they are just estimates but still.... Now, what is the IBO speed rating for the Extreme Solo with the Option 2 ....312-319? The Havoctec Versa's is 300 fps which is, obviously, 12-19 fps slower than the Extreme Solos.......Now I am only about 11 fps slower than the Havoctec's IBO speed with my setup.........but your estimates on speed could place me as much as 19 fps slower than the IBO speed for the Extreme Solo. Would that imply a higher efficiency rating for the Havoctec Versa even though its draw cycle doesn't help to store as much energy? Could that be because of the design/configuration of the riser/limbs? The materials used in the limbs, strings, etc??? Or something else?
So, if we tear this down even further we could surmise that the only difference between the two bows is the aggresiveness of the cam itself. If I were to put the original Redline 65% letoff cam on the Havoctec I would be willing to be that I could get 311-315 out of the bow at IBO specs. We compared a very similar situation last year with your Mighty Mite and my Havoc Redline. We were able to achieve roughly the same speeds because the one inch longer draw length I was using was roughly equivalent to the one inch shorter brace height you had on the Mighty Mite.
Jeff mentioned that Hoyt went in a direction different from the one he wanted to go in. Judging by his current choice in bows I would be willing to be that he felt Hoyt sacrificed performance in order to gain adjustability/marketability of their bows while reducing production costs....hence getting rid of the Redline cam, heavily pushing the Command Cams Plus and the Versacam...while still keeping the Saber/Excel cam for those few folks that still prefer a super soft drawing single cam.
Like him, I wish Hoyt would have redesigned one of the single cams to produce blistering speed...the new Redline that was introduced last year just doesn't do that with mid range brace height bows. Hopefully they will come up with something to remedy that for next year.....because that was also my only complaint for the 2002 lineup...they were all slower than last year's.
Ok, now we are going into a totally different area so I will stop....hope I didn't confuse, disappoint or tick you off.....I was just rather trying to related my point of view on this issue.
I am still going to go check some out this weekend....you convinced me enough to do that...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
02-08-2002, 08:47 AM
#54
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fargo ND USA
Posts: 124
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Hey Frank, it just so happens that I have an extra post feed cam from Bowtech from when I switched my Pro38 over to the infinity cam. If you ever feel like really tinkering....
Rod
Rod
02-08-2002, 08:49 AM
#55
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Jeff mentioned that Hoyt went in a direction different from the one he wanted to go in. Judging by his current choice in bows I would be willing to be that he felt Hoyt sacrificed performance in order to gain adjustability/marketability of their bows while reducing production costs....hence getting rid of the Redline cam, heavily pushing the Command Cams Plus and the Versacam...while still keeping the Saber/Excel cam for those few folks that still prefer a super soft drawing single cam.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Frank,
The "direction change" I spoke of is not only cam design, but really that Hoyt has turned down a different path then they have historically walked.
Excluding the Tec riser, Hoyt bows of today have nothing in common w/ bows they made only a few years ago. Barring a very few leading edge ideas, they have basically become another follower rather than sticking to their guns like they did for so many years.
Doesn't mean they don't make a great product, it's just a very different product than it used to be.
I'm quite positive that market pressures are playing a significantly larger role in the decision making process these days at Hoyt than they used to.
JeffB
Jeff mentioned that Hoyt went in a direction different from the one he wanted to go in. Judging by his current choice in bows I would be willing to be that he felt Hoyt sacrificed performance in order to gain adjustability/marketability of their bows while reducing production costs....hence getting rid of the Redline cam, heavily pushing the Command Cams Plus and the Versacam...while still keeping the Saber/Excel cam for those few folks that still prefer a super soft drawing single cam.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Frank,
The "direction change" I spoke of is not only cam design, but really that Hoyt has turned down a different path then they have historically walked.
Excluding the Tec riser, Hoyt bows of today have nothing in common w/ bows they made only a few years ago. Barring a very few leading edge ideas, they have basically become another follower rather than sticking to their guns like they did for so many years.
Doesn't mean they don't make a great product, it's just a very different product than it used to be.
I'm quite positive that market pressures are playing a significantly larger role in the decision making process these days at Hoyt than they used to.
JeffB
02-08-2002, 09:26 AM
#56
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'm quite positive that market pressures are playing a significantly larger role in the decision making process these days at Hoyt than they used to <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
...that statement would somewhat confirm my earlier comment.
Would you care to elaborate further on this issue?
...that statement would somewhat confirm my earlier comment.
Would you care to elaborate further on this issue?
02-08-2002, 11:47 AM
#57
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 520
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Pages back someone mentioned that folks had said that VFT is a lot like the Mathews long riser stuff. I watched the videos on Bowsite, and I have to say that it sounds exactly like the Mathews concept, which is hardly surprising given Bowtech's track record. The fact they may have taken it a few steps further than Mathews is just building on Mathews' base: A lot of people don't like the way this system looks and mathews has been breaking a trail for a while. Also Btech has been doing the same thing with its P38-40 bows. I don't know who first came up with the idea of a long riser short horizontal limbs. Drake compounds have looked like that (the limdbs part anyway) for years, though I don't recall anybody mentioned recoil as the reason, since in any even we didn't worry so much about that when bows shot heavy arrows at 200 fps.
I still think that Btech has some of the nicest looking bows this year. The BK2 is very interesting, can't believe (just an expresion)the velocity they are getting with this system, in a package which is pretty close to a target bow in length. What is the brace height now?
Also if we want to give credit where credit is due, at least Mathews and North american are offering bows which essentialy use the Saunder's string damping system. I have mentioned this option several times on this board, and how to make your own from a rear mounted stabilizer hole. I would certainly prefer to have it done OEM. There have been other bows that used something simmilar, but the string slammed into weighty pillars, and it looked high maintenance in some regards.
I like what I see from Bowtech. So far I think they have the most inovative line. Mathews has some inovative features also, It is much harder to evaluate from pictures what the benefit of a bow shooting a claimed 300 fps with a round cam is compared to one shooting 350 in the case of the BK2, but it may be a very effective package. In my case, what I need this year is a new hunting bow, so I am looking more in the Patriot's direction, or the Icon ? (is that the new Q2?). I also think the genesis stuff is important, the huntin/fishin model has a 30% let-off, didn't the kid's bow have zero? If this thing had a mechanicaly adjustible draw stop, it would be very important for beginers or folks who just don't care about the hyper technical approach.
What is the hot news from Hoyt? New variations on the tec risers don't impress me much. What am I missing?
I still think that Btech has some of the nicest looking bows this year. The BK2 is very interesting, can't believe (just an expresion)the velocity they are getting with this system, in a package which is pretty close to a target bow in length. What is the brace height now?
Also if we want to give credit where credit is due, at least Mathews and North american are offering bows which essentialy use the Saunder's string damping system. I have mentioned this option several times on this board, and how to make your own from a rear mounted stabilizer hole. I would certainly prefer to have it done OEM. There have been other bows that used something simmilar, but the string slammed into weighty pillars, and it looked high maintenance in some regards.
I like what I see from Bowtech. So far I think they have the most inovative line. Mathews has some inovative features also, It is much harder to evaluate from pictures what the benefit of a bow shooting a claimed 300 fps with a round cam is compared to one shooting 350 in the case of the BK2, but it may be a very effective package. In my case, what I need this year is a new hunting bow, so I am looking more in the Patriot's direction, or the Icon ? (is that the new Q2?). I also think the genesis stuff is important, the huntin/fishin model has a 30% let-off, didn't the kid's bow have zero? If this thing had a mechanicaly adjustible draw stop, it would be very important for beginers or folks who just don't care about the hyper technical approach.
What is the hot news from Hoyt? New variations on the tec risers don't impress me much. What am I missing?
02-08-2002, 05:16 PM
#58
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Frank,
Did I ruffle your feathers!? I didn't mean to.....just having some fun(you know that tho)
You know what you were saying got me to thinking.......I finally realized why you are such a "Hard Sell" on these bows.
You and to some extent myself are the exception to the rule when it comes to draw length.....especially you.
You said it yourself, you can pretty much get good KE with any bow you want (provided they offer a 31"er<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>)......heck you could probably get 60+ out of my old Bear Whitetail Hunter.
Anyway here's my point......for you and me and Arthur P(poet and don't know it<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)
We don't "Need" the extra KE.....I know I don't, I just enjoy the added "Play factor" that comes along with the fact that I got a great versatile bow.
However for the 29" on down crowd......that difference in speed rating could mean the difference between a guy shooting 50ft lbs of KE with one bow......and maybe 60+ft lbs with a faster bow like many of the BowTechs......you and I know THAT'S where the real meaningful numbers are.
Not with us goofing around with 80 and 90ft lbs of KE.....or even your 70(which is upper end I'd bet of everyone here if we took a poll)
You aren't impressed with 20fps speed gains because you ,like me, are already faster than the average Joe......but to the "Draw Impaired" crowd 20-30fps increases are dramatic.
For that guy with a 27" draw, the ability to own a bow that can shoot over 300fps!!.... for him could be a BIG help......at the very least it might help with any inferiority complex.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I personally like to play......(so do you, you just forgot<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) I like all the options a bow as fast and smooth as mine gives me......If I want to shoot it at 336 to impress the chicks I'm in!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>......if I want to slow it down to 280 or so with a 500 gr arrow to impress the deer.....that'll work too.
If I want to shoot it at 65#, I can still shoot as fast or faster than everything out there or simply raise arrow weight to meet 3D speed limits......for hunting I'm also not going to be limited in broadhead choices either by a long shot.......I like functional extremes.
And that goes for SHORT bows as well.......I really loved that Mighty Mite, and I will own another one, I didn't pick up the "Pro38" to kill tanks......I got it for the versatility. It will do EVERYTHING and if it's the ONLY bow I own for a while I won't feel handicapped in anything I choose to do with it(from indoor spots to anti-terrorism). I feel for right now the trade off is well worth it.
The only other point I guess I'm trying to make is that I really feel like you are disregarding a great many terrific bows based on a current preference......I'd love to see your face after a 345fps arrow rips thru a chronograph with a nearly 7" brace height! And smoothly and quietly at that. Who gives a poop if it's a little heavier or longer......and maybe some aren't a huge raw performance advantage, some of them are just great shooting bows that have design attributes to just make them easier to shoot and inherently more accurate.....And I don't just mean BowTech, I'm talking everything right back to Hoyt.
I'd be interested to hear how you like or don't like an "Ultratec" or a "Maverick" or a "BKII" or a whatever.....life's to short, Shoot hard!!There's a whole other world out there over 34".
Boy there's just too much good equipment out there these days isn't there?
You want the honest to gods truth about what bows I would be shooting right now if BowTech wasn't in the picture?......I know you're gonna love this. I'd be shooting a 60# Hoyt "Ultratec CC+" for 3D and target and a 70# "Havoctec" versa for hunting......there I said it! You happy?<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
Did I ruffle your feathers!?
I didn't mean to.....just having some fun(you know that tho)You know what you were saying got me to thinking.......I finally realized why you are such a "Hard Sell" on these bows.
You and to some extent myself are the exception to the rule when it comes to draw length.....especially you.
You said it yourself, you can pretty much get good KE with any bow you want (provided they offer a 31"er<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>)......heck you could probably get 60+ out of my old Bear Whitetail Hunter.
Anyway here's my point......for you and me and Arthur P(poet and don't know it<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)
We don't "Need" the extra KE.....I know I don't, I just enjoy the added "Play factor" that comes along with the fact that I got a great versatile bow.
However for the 29" on down crowd......that difference in speed rating could mean the difference between a guy shooting 50ft lbs of KE with one bow......and maybe 60+ft lbs with a faster bow like many of the BowTechs......you and I know THAT'S where the real meaningful numbers are.
Not with us goofing around with 80 and 90ft lbs of KE.....or even your 70(which is upper end I'd bet of everyone here if we took a poll)
You aren't impressed with 20fps speed gains because you ,like me, are already faster than the average Joe......but to the "Draw Impaired" crowd 20-30fps increases are dramatic.
For that guy with a 27" draw, the ability to own a bow that can shoot over 300fps!!.... for him could be a BIG help......at the very least it might help with any inferiority complex.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I personally like to play......(so do you, you just forgot<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>) I like all the options a bow as fast and smooth as mine gives me......If I want to shoot it at 336 to impress the chicks I'm in!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>......if I want to slow it down to 280 or so with a 500 gr arrow to impress the deer.....that'll work too.
If I want to shoot it at 65#, I can still shoot as fast or faster than everything out there or simply raise arrow weight to meet 3D speed limits......for hunting I'm also not going to be limited in broadhead choices either by a long shot.......I like functional extremes.
And that goes for SHORT bows as well.......I really loved that Mighty Mite, and I will own another one, I didn't pick up the "Pro38" to kill tanks......I got it for the versatility. It will do EVERYTHING and if it's the ONLY bow I own for a while I won't feel handicapped in anything I choose to do with it(from indoor spots to anti-terrorism). I feel for right now the trade off is well worth it.
The only other point I guess I'm trying to make is that I really feel like you are disregarding a great many terrific bows based on a current preference......I'd love to see your face after a 345fps arrow rips thru a chronograph with a nearly 7" brace height! And smoothly and quietly at that. Who gives a poop if it's a little heavier or longer......and maybe some aren't a huge raw performance advantage, some of them are just great shooting bows that have design attributes to just make them easier to shoot and inherently more accurate.....And I don't just mean BowTech, I'm talking everything right back to Hoyt.
I'd be interested to hear how you like or don't like an "Ultratec" or a "Maverick" or a "BKII" or a whatever.....life's to short, Shoot hard!!
There's a whole other world out there over 34".Boy there's just too much good equipment out there these days isn't there?
You want the honest to gods truth about what bows I would be shooting right now if BowTech wasn't in the picture?......I know you're gonna love this.
I'd be shooting a 60# Hoyt "Ultratec CC+" for 3D and target and a 70# "Havoctec" versa for hunting......there I said it! You happy?<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>
02-08-2002, 05:30 PM
#59
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 1,665
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>For that guy with a 27" draw, the ability to own a bow that can shoot over 300fps!!.... for him could be a BIG help......at the very least it might help with any inferiority complex.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
Matt, correct me if I'm wrong, did you just slam the heck out of me? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
My inferiority complex should be fixed here next week. I have a 29" cam coming for my Q2XL. Glad I didn't just buy those dozen 27" Carbons last month!!!
You are right though, the 20fps gains are priceless with us stubby shooters. I'll hopefully gain around 30-35fps total with lighter arrows, and 2" of extra draw. My KE before was right around 60, so hopefully now I can branch up to around 70. I will be shooting lighter arrows though, so I'll have to find out my total set up specs before I can figure out what I'm hitting.
Matt, correct me if I'm wrong, did you just slam the heck out of me? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
My inferiority complex should be fixed here next week. I have a 29" cam coming for my Q2XL. Glad I didn't just buy those dozen 27" Carbons last month!!!
You are right though, the 20fps gains are priceless with us stubby shooters. I'll hopefully gain around 30-35fps total with lighter arrows, and 2" of extra draw. My KE before was right around 60, so hopefully now I can branch up to around 70. I will be shooting lighter arrows though, so I'll have to find out my total set up specs before I can figure out what I'm hitting.