I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
02-06-2002, 09:47 AM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Frank,
Congrats!..didn't know you had a little one on the way...you better buy a BT now, cause once the kids come, that's all she wrote..you will watch the money go down the tubes in the form of poopy diapers & spit-up (you wouldn't freakin believe how expensive diapers are, and how fast they go through em)!
Well, I still see the ES as a viable option for you w/ only a slight diff in AtoA (which personally I cannot see making the difference between making a shot, and missing except in a extremely rare circumstance). The mass weights are similar if not favoring the ES a tad..my 2000 ES is lighter than the HTec in hand, I suspect the SandTrap models are comparable... but hey..you want, what you want..
RE: the DTI..honestly I've been having quicker & increased serving wear with the DTI compared w/ the old STI. My slide is set-up correctly for the Excel cam, and the problem started AFTER I had the DTI put back on correctly. I'm a bit dissapointed in that regard. W/ the WC cable I get a bit of discoloration, and my Q2 w/ TT 450 cable has had virtually no serving wear either....go figure..
The limb stop IS fantastic. One of the great things about all the bows I have shot w/ a limbstop is that they make you so much more consistent...there's no way you can draw any further(unless you are intentionally trying to break the darn thing), and on most onecams that's a sensitive thing..and one of the reasons I much prefer the original RL vs.the new models..it's still too easy to overdraw on the peg stop, and get some goofy shots. While the Peg stops are very versatile, I've come to dislike them from an accuracy (or forgiveness) standpoint for 2 reasons. First, the aforementioned "overdraw" circumstance and Secondly, the fact that unless you like 70-80% letoff you get reamed on the length of the valley. I sure wish Hoyt would go back to the original. Ah well... as I said..different directions..
Also the Infinity cam has the "deepest hole" I've felt. when you get back in the valley it's amazing how much tension you can let up and not have the string go anywhere..there's no middle ground..either you are way in or you are way out. For those who relax a bit as they anchor and then start the back tension up, it really is the ultimate. The Limb stop is one of those things that once you try, you probably cannot go back to any other system. I loved my PSE Durango, Fireflight, and Flash w/ LC's for that reason, and also my BM2000..it forces you (without being un-natural or uncomfortable feeling) to be consistent. Even compared to a onecam w/ a super solid stop on the track like the Mini-Max cam or a properly timed SL, it's much more consistent.
C'est la Vie
JeffB
Congrats!..didn't know you had a little one on the way...you better buy a BT now, cause once the kids come, that's all she wrote..you will watch the money go down the tubes in the form of poopy diapers & spit-up (you wouldn't freakin believe how expensive diapers are, and how fast they go through em)!
Well, I still see the ES as a viable option for you w/ only a slight diff in AtoA (which personally I cannot see making the difference between making a shot, and missing except in a extremely rare circumstance). The mass weights are similar if not favoring the ES a tad..my 2000 ES is lighter than the HTec in hand, I suspect the SandTrap models are comparable... but hey..you want, what you want..
RE: the DTI..honestly I've been having quicker & increased serving wear with the DTI compared w/ the old STI. My slide is set-up correctly for the Excel cam, and the problem started AFTER I had the DTI put back on correctly. I'm a bit dissapointed in that regard. W/ the WC cable I get a bit of discoloration, and my Q2 w/ TT 450 cable has had virtually no serving wear either....go figure..
The limb stop IS fantastic. One of the great things about all the bows I have shot w/ a limbstop is that they make you so much more consistent...there's no way you can draw any further(unless you are intentionally trying to break the darn thing), and on most onecams that's a sensitive thing..and one of the reasons I much prefer the original RL vs.the new models..it's still too easy to overdraw on the peg stop, and get some goofy shots. While the Peg stops are very versatile, I've come to dislike them from an accuracy (or forgiveness) standpoint for 2 reasons. First, the aforementioned "overdraw" circumstance and Secondly, the fact that unless you like 70-80% letoff you get reamed on the length of the valley. I sure wish Hoyt would go back to the original. Ah well... as I said..different directions..
Also the Infinity cam has the "deepest hole" I've felt. when you get back in the valley it's amazing how much tension you can let up and not have the string go anywhere..there's no middle ground..either you are way in or you are way out. For those who relax a bit as they anchor and then start the back tension up, it really is the ultimate. The Limb stop is one of those things that once you try, you probably cannot go back to any other system. I loved my PSE Durango, Fireflight, and Flash w/ LC's for that reason, and also my BM2000..it forces you (without being un-natural or uncomfortable feeling) to be consistent. Even compared to a onecam w/ a super solid stop on the track like the Mini-Max cam or a properly timed SL, it's much more consistent.
C'est la Vie
JeffB
02-06-2002, 10:07 AM
#42
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NW Ohio USA
Posts: 1,532
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
I see a BowTech Rascal purchase in the future.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Sorry they don't come in 31" draw either.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> Now, all jokes aside congrats on the upcoming addition to the family. Hope to meet you someday Frank.<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - BowTech_Shooter on 02/06/2002 11:08:28
Edited by - BowTech_Shooter on 02/06/2002 11:08:28
02-06-2002, 10:20 AM
#43
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: fairbanks alaska
Posts: 144
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
ABM, ill give that glove a try and give an honest opinion, maby ill even bring my martin and show you what noise realy is. i think once you change to the 29" draw and shoot some carbons you will be shocked and wont want another bow, your going to get something like 35fps faster, and to be honest it dont matter what you shoot as long as your happy and you think its the best, great. but i know what i like [:8]
Ron
ill bring a couple of carbons for you to take back for when you get your cams on.
Ron
ill bring a couple of carbons for you to take back for when you get your cams on.
02-06-2002, 12:24 PM
#44
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Bowtech Shooter,
Thank you for the well wishes. I look forward to meeting you some day as well.
Jeff,
Thank you too for the well wishes......and for reminding me about the diaper issue...<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
First, I cannot honestly believe that you are getting more wear with the dual track idler. If anything I would have thought less. I have had zero wear with my Versacam....something I couldn't say with the previous Versacam design or the original Redline. (But you and I share something there...I preferred the original Redline HO as well.....and I know what you mean about different directions) I have really come to admire the dual track design for all of the advantages that it offers.
Second, not to come on too strong but I hated the limbstop on the Lightning cam. I had endless problems with mine. If I drew too hard into it then it eventually torqued the cam. The problem, as I saw it, was the the limb was too far from the center of the cam itself. The limbstop, being long in length to compensate for the distance between the center of the cam and the limb, would keep twisting the cam as it hit the limb.
The cablestop that I have been using is shorter in length and because the cable is closer to the true center of the cam/axle it doesn't twist the cam. Granted, the wall isn't super hard like the limbstop variety but I wouldn't call it, in any way, mushy.
Again, I do/did prefer the original Redline to any of the current cam designs. Maybe Hoyt will take a more aggressive approach to cam design next year.
Hmmm, if I order a 31 inch Extreme Solo now then I will have to put the Havoctec up on Ebay (any takers? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)....
...let me feel one and really check out....then I will get back to you on this issue.
Matt..paging Matt...I am waiting for that address/phone number.....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....I don't have a Bowtech dealer in my area....
Thank you for the well wishes. I look forward to meeting you some day as well.
Jeff,
Thank you too for the well wishes...
...and for reminding me about the diaper issue...<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>First, I cannot honestly believe that you are getting more wear with the dual track idler. If anything I would have thought less. I have had zero wear with my Versacam....something I couldn't say with the previous Versacam design or the original Redline. (But you and I share something there...I preferred the original Redline HO as well..
...and I know what you mean about different directions) I have really come to admire the dual track design for all of the advantages that it offers.Second, not to come on too strong but I hated the limbstop on the Lightning cam. I had endless problems with mine. If I drew too hard into it then it eventually torqued the cam. The problem, as I saw it, was the the limb was too far from the center of the cam itself. The limbstop, being long in length to compensate for the distance between the center of the cam and the limb, would keep twisting the cam as it hit the limb.
The cablestop that I have been using is shorter in length and because the cable is closer to the true center of the cam/axle it doesn't twist the cam. Granted, the wall isn't super hard like the limbstop variety but I wouldn't call it, in any way, mushy.
Again, I do/did prefer the original Redline to any of the current cam designs. Maybe Hoyt will take a more aggressive approach to cam design next year.
Hmmm, if I order a 31 inch Extreme Solo now then I will have to put the Havoctec up on Ebay (any takers? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>)....
...let me feel one and really check out....then I will get back to you on this issue.
Matt..paging Matt...I am waiting for that address/phone number.....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>....I don't have a Bowtech dealer in my area....
02-06-2002, 02:23 PM
#45
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Frank,
My son is just now getting to the early potty training age…honestly the diapers are much better than having to read him books like “Everyone Poops” (no lie, imagine reading a cartoon book about animals, birds, and humans anatomy and how we all do poop…you should see the rhino picture..EWWWWW..looks like someone turned on the garden hose!
RE: the DTI. Yup…I couldn’t believe it either! My HavocTec has as much or more wear on it than the original cable on my Y2K Defiant! (that bow has had a thousand and a half arrows through it I’m sure, if not more). I love the advantages of the DTI as well, it’s just the cam technology that’s “lacking”, IMO. And yes the stop is pretty good, not mushy. But you still can pull back a bit farther than you should.
The PSE LC cam bows did have a bit of torque applied, especially the LC1 (the one w/ 5 different stop “mounts”). They sold different size stops for each draw length module for this reason. This is also a product of limb torque (The Magna-glass limbs are worse than the Barnsdale limbs on the Durango) and quality of bushings. I’m familiar w/ the problem, but it has not surfaced on the Infinity cam to my knowledge.
I think the real reason the limb-stop works so well is nock travel: As most of us here know or have read, Most one-cams have uneven, and non-level nock travel. We also know that when a singlecam gets out of time it starts to affect the nock travel, and how well they shoot. The reason that the wall of single cam bows has become more solid is to make sure that the deviation of nock travel is consistent. When it’s consistent, the problem is minimized. When the first generation Mathews and Jennings cams came out, they really didn’t have that great of wall (especially by today’s standards), and they also had wider valleys. They also had very poor nock travel. Combine the three and you’ve got a recipe for accuracy disaster. By varying tension on the wall, or shooting from various points in a wider valley, it was seriously screwing up the accuracy, because the “mistake” in arrow flight was anything but consistent. As the one-cam’s have progressed those walls have become more solid, and valley’s have become tighter…and the reason is nock travel. The less variation (even minor) you have in draw length the more consistent the “mistake” and hence the increased consistency and accuracy. By designing an extremely narrow valley, and rock solid wall, you’ve got the best combination. On a 2 cam bow you can just tiller and synch tune the cams so that any variation at the wall or valley can be compensated for: no can do on the one cam.
And that’s why I love the limb stop (assuming it’s a good design w/ quality parts), as it makes the variation as absolutely minor as possible, and translates that into the most consistent arrow flight and accuracy. If you are drawing, anchoring, and executing the shot like a normal person, you can’t overdraw on the stop (creating a variation), and as long as your draw length is correct, you don’t create a variation by creeping. That, in addition to great construction is why I feel they (Bowtech) have the extra edge in the accuracy department. This is the reason why my Mathews Rival Pro to this day is the most accurate shooting Mathews I’ve ever owned. The wall was similar in feel to a limb stop, and that’s why the majority of the Mathews Pro’s shoot the Min-Max cam on the Conquest and C2 If their draw length warrants it.
I’ve had 2 “pro”-shop employees tell me that they could not shoot the BM2000 and Bear Codes (both w/ Supercam) worth a damn past 25 yards (because they were so poorly built) one day when I brought mine in for a new cable. I asked if those guys were shooting the stop, and they both said “no”, they had wanted the extra valley for hunting (both of these guys are good shots too). I tried to explain the whole nock travel thingy and they kind of just shook their heads and rolled their eyes. After I got my cable on, I went out to the indoor 3D range, and proceeded to shoot a 3 inch group of 220 FPS 2413’s out to a 40 yard McKenzie Caribou once I sighted in at 20. I told them I must have got a really well built one.
It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s the best one so far, IMO.
JeffB
My son is just now getting to the early potty training age…honestly the diapers are much better than having to read him books like “Everyone Poops” (no lie, imagine reading a cartoon book about animals, birds, and humans anatomy and how we all do poop…you should see the rhino picture..EWWWWW..looks like someone turned on the garden hose!
RE: the DTI. Yup…I couldn’t believe it either! My HavocTec has as much or more wear on it than the original cable on my Y2K Defiant! (that bow has had a thousand and a half arrows through it I’m sure, if not more). I love the advantages of the DTI as well, it’s just the cam technology that’s “lacking”, IMO. And yes the stop is pretty good, not mushy. But you still can pull back a bit farther than you should.
The PSE LC cam bows did have a bit of torque applied, especially the LC1 (the one w/ 5 different stop “mounts”). They sold different size stops for each draw length module for this reason. This is also a product of limb torque (The Magna-glass limbs are worse than the Barnsdale limbs on the Durango) and quality of bushings. I’m familiar w/ the problem, but it has not surfaced on the Infinity cam to my knowledge.
I think the real reason the limb-stop works so well is nock travel: As most of us here know or have read, Most one-cams have uneven, and non-level nock travel. We also know that when a singlecam gets out of time it starts to affect the nock travel, and how well they shoot. The reason that the wall of single cam bows has become more solid is to make sure that the deviation of nock travel is consistent. When it’s consistent, the problem is minimized. When the first generation Mathews and Jennings cams came out, they really didn’t have that great of wall (especially by today’s standards), and they also had wider valleys. They also had very poor nock travel. Combine the three and you’ve got a recipe for accuracy disaster. By varying tension on the wall, or shooting from various points in a wider valley, it was seriously screwing up the accuracy, because the “mistake” in arrow flight was anything but consistent. As the one-cam’s have progressed those walls have become more solid, and valley’s have become tighter…and the reason is nock travel. The less variation (even minor) you have in draw length the more consistent the “mistake” and hence the increased consistency and accuracy. By designing an extremely narrow valley, and rock solid wall, you’ve got the best combination. On a 2 cam bow you can just tiller and synch tune the cams so that any variation at the wall or valley can be compensated for: no can do on the one cam.
And that’s why I love the limb stop (assuming it’s a good design w/ quality parts), as it makes the variation as absolutely minor as possible, and translates that into the most consistent arrow flight and accuracy. If you are drawing, anchoring, and executing the shot like a normal person, you can’t overdraw on the stop (creating a variation), and as long as your draw length is correct, you don’t create a variation by creeping. That, in addition to great construction is why I feel they (Bowtech) have the extra edge in the accuracy department. This is the reason why my Mathews Rival Pro to this day is the most accurate shooting Mathews I’ve ever owned. The wall was similar in feel to a limb stop, and that’s why the majority of the Mathews Pro’s shoot the Min-Max cam on the Conquest and C2 If their draw length warrants it.
I’ve had 2 “pro”-shop employees tell me that they could not shoot the BM2000 and Bear Codes (both w/ Supercam) worth a damn past 25 yards (because they were so poorly built) one day when I brought mine in for a new cable. I asked if those guys were shooting the stop, and they both said “no”, they had wanted the extra valley for hunting (both of these guys are good shots too). I tried to explain the whole nock travel thingy and they kind of just shook their heads and rolled their eyes. After I got my cable on, I went out to the indoor 3D range, and proceeded to shoot a 3 inch group of 220 FPS 2413’s out to a 40 yard McKenzie Caribou once I sighted in at 20. I told them I must have got a really well built one.
It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s the best one so far, IMO.
JeffB
02-06-2002, 03:02 PM
#46
Giant Nontypical
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Frank,
You've got mail....!! Sorry I'm at work when I read these things and I am helpless to respond if you know what I mean!
Oh yeah.....I forgot! In my e-mail I wanted to mention that I think the "Infinity" cam is extra over the base price of the bow? At least I'm pretty sure some dealers are charging a bit more.
If that deters you, the original "Post Feed" cam is just fine!......That's what i had on my Mighty Mite, and my buddy swapped out his Tech29's PF cam for an "Infinity" cam for $40.00........I didn't see it being worth the extra $$, performance was the same, you can just play with the let-off and valley......and to a tiny degree the draw length.
Knowing you......you'll want to play.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
And congrats on the upcoming "PABowbaby"...I bet the kid will ba a real Mighty Mite.
You've got mail....!! Sorry I'm at work when I read these things and I am helpless to respond if you know what I mean!
Oh yeah.....I forgot! In my e-mail I wanted to mention that I think the "Infinity" cam is extra over the base price of the bow? At least I'm pretty sure some dealers are charging a bit more.
If that deters you, the original "Post Feed" cam is just fine!......That's what i had on my Mighty Mite, and my buddy swapped out his Tech29's PF cam for an "Infinity" cam for $40.00........I didn't see it being worth the extra $$, performance was the same, you can just play with the let-off and valley......and to a tiny degree the draw length.
Knowing you......you'll want to play.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
And congrats on the upcoming "PABowbaby"...I bet the kid will ba a real Mighty Mite.
02-07-2002, 04:48 AM
#47
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Thanks for the mail Matt. I am going to go check out some of their models this weekend. I found two other shops besides the one you mentioned that are listed as Bowtech dealers and that are reasonably close. It can't hurt to go to all 3...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
And thank you for your kind remarks about PABowBaby.....but I bet he creates Havoc with all his TEChnologically oriented toys....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - PABowhntr on 02/07/2002 05:49:12
And thank you for your kind remarks about PABowBaby.....but I bet he creates Havoc with all his TEChnologically oriented toys....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - PABowhntr on 02/07/2002 05:49:12
02-07-2002, 08:17 AM
#50
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Matt,
Come to think of it, it is kind of funny how Bowtech picked that name after Hoyt had already introduced their TEC bows....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jeff,
My apologies. I am in no way ignoring your posts...it was just that Matt got my attention quicker with that little witty comment about "Mighty Mite"...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
...and I admit the poopy diapers had something to do with it. I wonder if they make Scent lok diapers??? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Back to what you stated earlier.....considering what you posted about serving wear and my personal findings I can only come to two conclusions.....either Hoyt put together a really poor quality bow for you or the Excel cam shows much more wear than the Versacam. As I stated before I have zero serving wear now with the dual track idler Versacam....and I have checked several other 2002 Versacam equipped bows in the recent weeks...non showed cable wear...regardless of draw length or axle to axle length variations.
Could it be just a "lefty" phenomenon? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I am glad to hear that the Infinity cam does not have some of the same problems that the Lightning cam did. That was a big turn-off for me buying any other PSE Lightning cam equipped bows.
Second, you brought up the issue of level nock travel...... How is the nock travel with the Infinity cam? Have you checked it out yet? Is it typical of most single track idler wheel single cams?
I have always preferred cams with short valleys because I feel that they tend to promote less creep and better overall form....but there is a limit to everything and I am wondering if having such a sharp drop of into the valley and such a short valley could be detrimental to the shooter in terms of physical endurance? ie....how long before shoulder problems arise?
Finally, some day you and I are going to have to get together and you are going to have to show me this "give" that the Versacam's cable stop has. I have not experienced this issue...but that have more to do with my shooting form than the bow itself?
Thanks again for the great discussion Jeff....maybe we should move this technical discussion over to the technical forum?
Come to think of it, it is kind of funny how Bowtech picked that name after Hoyt had already introduced their TEC bows....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jeff,
My apologies. I am in no way ignoring your posts...it was just that Matt got my attention quicker with that little witty comment about "Mighty Mite"...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
...and I admit the poopy diapers had something to do with it. I wonder if they make Scent lok diapers??? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Back to what you stated earlier.....considering what you posted about serving wear and my personal findings I can only come to two conclusions.....either Hoyt put together a really poor quality bow for you or the Excel cam shows much more wear than the Versacam. As I stated before I have zero serving wear now with the dual track idler Versacam....and I have checked several other 2002 Versacam equipped bows in the recent weeks...non showed cable wear...regardless of draw length or axle to axle length variations.
Could it be just a "lefty" phenomenon? <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I am glad to hear that the Infinity cam does not have some of the same problems that the Lightning cam did. That was a big turn-off for me buying any other PSE Lightning cam equipped bows.
Second, you brought up the issue of level nock travel...... How is the nock travel with the Infinity cam? Have you checked it out yet? Is it typical of most single track idler wheel single cams?
I have always preferred cams with short valleys because I feel that they tend to promote less creep and better overall form....but there is a limit to everything and I am wondering if having such a sharp drop of into the valley and such a short valley could be detrimental to the shooter in terms of physical endurance? ie....how long before shoulder problems arise?
Finally, some day you and I are going to have to get together and you are going to have to show me this "give" that the Versacam's cable stop has. I have not experienced this issue...but that have more to do with my shooting form than the bow itself?
Thanks again for the great discussion Jeff....maybe we should move this technical discussion over to the technical forum?