I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
02-05-2002, 06:11 AM
#21
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Gentleman,
Again, thank you for the kind suggestions. I do appreciate them sincerely.
Bowtech Shooter,
I was not suggesting that Bowtech or any other company change the design of their bow or bows to suit me...but rather to suit the large number of archers who are shooting their correct draw lengths of over 30 inches.
Shooting too long of a draw length can be detrimental to shooting form, accuracy, etc... Everyone knows that...but what alot of folks fail to mention is that shooting too short of a draw length can have the same affect.
I have a serious issue with companies that only appeal to the "majority" of archers/bowhunters out there. That is one of the reasons that you won't see me buy a bow from several companies. They tend to cater to the "average" shooter and have very few options for shooters who don't fit that mold.
It would appear that Bowtech has taken a step in the right direction by offering bows like the Tech29 and Extreme Short Draw for shooters whose draw lengths are below average...but what about those folks who have draw lengths over 30 inches and who want to shoot bows that are 34 inches and under in axle to axle length.
In my opinion, Bowtech never should have gotten rid of the Mighty Mite with the 31 inch draw length option. They lost many potential customers there.
A flagship bow like the Patriot should be made available with options that would allow more than just the average shooter to take advantage of. Shorter and longer draw lengths would be a great step in the right direction.
I apologize if this post sounds a bit harsh. It was not meant to be...and I have been told that I sound that way sometimes even when it is not my intention.
As for the "surgically altered" suggestion....I don't know if using those words is a good thing to say to any man....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jeff,
You have given me some food for thought..and I do appreciate it. Who knows....maybe after many more years of shooting I will "lose" my longer than average draw length...like Arthur and be forced to use "shortish" 30 inch draw equipment...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Matt,
That looks like a Mathews!!! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Again, thank you for the kind suggestions. I do appreciate them sincerely.
Bowtech Shooter,
I was not suggesting that Bowtech or any other company change the design of their bow or bows to suit me...but rather to suit the large number of archers who are shooting their correct draw lengths of over 30 inches.
Shooting too long of a draw length can be detrimental to shooting form, accuracy, etc... Everyone knows that...but what alot of folks fail to mention is that shooting too short of a draw length can have the same affect.
I have a serious issue with companies that only appeal to the "majority" of archers/bowhunters out there. That is one of the reasons that you won't see me buy a bow from several companies. They tend to cater to the "average" shooter and have very few options for shooters who don't fit that mold.
It would appear that Bowtech has taken a step in the right direction by offering bows like the Tech29 and Extreme Short Draw for shooters whose draw lengths are below average...but what about those folks who have draw lengths over 30 inches and who want to shoot bows that are 34 inches and under in axle to axle length.
In my opinion, Bowtech never should have gotten rid of the Mighty Mite with the 31 inch draw length option. They lost many potential customers there.
A flagship bow like the Patriot should be made available with options that would allow more than just the average shooter to take advantage of. Shorter and longer draw lengths would be a great step in the right direction.
I apologize if this post sounds a bit harsh. It was not meant to be...and I have been told that I sound that way sometimes even when it is not my intention.
As for the "surgically altered" suggestion....I don't know if using those words is a good thing to say to any man....<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jeff,
You have given me some food for thought..and I do appreciate it. Who knows....maybe after many more years of shooting I will "lose" my longer than average draw length...like Arthur and be forced to use "shortish" 30 inch draw equipment...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Matt,
That looks like a Mathews!!! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
02-05-2002, 09:06 AM
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: NW Ohio USA
Posts: 1,532
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
PA, My last thread was meant strictly as a joke. Believe me I wish I could get the extra speeds that come with having a 31" draw. But I now see that along with that comes the problem of finding a bow that draws long enough.
02-05-2002, 09:19 AM
#24
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Frank,
Don't rule out the Stalker...
Yeah I know, It doesn't have the SandTraps, or the W/C strings/cables.
Really for a smaller investment you could have the bow you want.
$400 for a Stalker w/ Infinity cam.
$50-70 for the NV system from PSE(which accomplishes the same if not more than the Sandtraps as far as vibration & noise). And who knows the new BT Vibrablock may be even better.
If you end up liking the bow you can order the W/C strings/Cables for $90 or so. Honestly the "low end" strings/cable from Bowtech are not that bad. I think I had to re-set my 2000 ES option 2's timing twice (it uses the same string/cable as the Stalker does now) which compared to many othe bows/strings I've had is doing very well! Now it's been sitting for awhile in my basement and is starting to get ratty. End result is about $550 bucks...$50 cheaper than a MM SRP.
My local dealer shoots the same exact set-up for hunting(Stalker w/ NV & Infinity), and the bow is very quiet, and is only about 9 FPS slower than his MM appples to apples (He has a 28" draw). With your 31" draw I don't see why you would not be getting close to if not better performance than a 30" draw MM (considering the Stalker's more agressive limb angle). I almost bought one, and I still might!
Also you might want to look into those new package models w/ the 9 1/8" brace height. I know one of them is 32" Axle to Axle and goes up to 31".
I suspect that one of the reasons you don't see a 31" MM or similar length bow is due to technical factors. I can't imagine the string angle on a 31" draw MM. Even a 29" Tech-29 is borderline ludicrous w/ the angle of the limbs on those bows. There's alot more to it than just the company not wanting to produce shorty bows for long draw length archers. While other companies do it, their designs do not have nearly the same performance, and it's quite possible the stress levels are too much on the "pushing the limits" Bowtech designs. The Stalker being less performance oriented for the average draw length, probably gets into the near maximum threshold level of performance w/ the 31" draw length. The other bows in the 31" draw length are all heavier, and longer (i.e. More apt to handle the increased stress in the shooting system). Also even if Bowtech was simply to machine a larger module, you would run into problems of cam over-rotation at full draw & beyond normal cable serving wear in addition to possibly overstressing the design.
Heck, send me a check for $300 and I'll ship you out my 2000 ES option 60 LB'er. You can buy a 31" module for it!
EDIT: I forgot to mention that no-one is saying that you should shorten your draw length. By using a 30" module, and then adding a loop to compensate you are virtually changing nothing other than a possible loss of performance. Since your hand will be at the same anchor position it will keep your alignment correct.
JeffB
Edited by - JeffB on 02/05/2002 10:44:31
Don't rule out the Stalker...
Yeah I know, It doesn't have the SandTraps, or the W/C strings/cables.
Really for a smaller investment you could have the bow you want.
$400 for a Stalker w/ Infinity cam.
$50-70 for the NV system from PSE(which accomplishes the same if not more than the Sandtraps as far as vibration & noise). And who knows the new BT Vibrablock may be even better.
If you end up liking the bow you can order the W/C strings/Cables for $90 or so. Honestly the "low end" strings/cable from Bowtech are not that bad. I think I had to re-set my 2000 ES option 2's timing twice (it uses the same string/cable as the Stalker does now) which compared to many othe bows/strings I've had is doing very well! Now it's been sitting for awhile in my basement and is starting to get ratty. End result is about $550 bucks...$50 cheaper than a MM SRP.
My local dealer shoots the same exact set-up for hunting(Stalker w/ NV & Infinity), and the bow is very quiet, and is only about 9 FPS slower than his MM appples to apples (He has a 28" draw). With your 31" draw I don't see why you would not be getting close to if not better performance than a 30" draw MM (considering the Stalker's more agressive limb angle). I almost bought one, and I still might!
Also you might want to look into those new package models w/ the 9 1/8" brace height. I know one of them is 32" Axle to Axle and goes up to 31".
I suspect that one of the reasons you don't see a 31" MM or similar length bow is due to technical factors. I can't imagine the string angle on a 31" draw MM. Even a 29" Tech-29 is borderline ludicrous w/ the angle of the limbs on those bows. There's alot more to it than just the company not wanting to produce shorty bows for long draw length archers. While other companies do it, their designs do not have nearly the same performance, and it's quite possible the stress levels are too much on the "pushing the limits" Bowtech designs. The Stalker being less performance oriented for the average draw length, probably gets into the near maximum threshold level of performance w/ the 31" draw length. The other bows in the 31" draw length are all heavier, and longer (i.e. More apt to handle the increased stress in the shooting system). Also even if Bowtech was simply to machine a larger module, you would run into problems of cam over-rotation at full draw & beyond normal cable serving wear in addition to possibly overstressing the design.
Heck, send me a check for $300 and I'll ship you out my 2000 ES option 60 LB'er. You can buy a 31" module for it!
EDIT: I forgot to mention that no-one is saying that you should shorten your draw length. By using a 30" module, and then adding a loop to compensate you are virtually changing nothing other than a possible loss of performance. Since your hand will be at the same anchor position it will keep your alignment correct.
JeffB
Edited by - JeffB on 02/05/2002 10:44:31
02-05-2002, 10:40 AM
#25
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Bowtech Shooter,
I know you were joking..that is why I put the "" at the end of my last statement......though it did allow me to express my feelings about the draw length issue.
Jeff,
Your last paragraph....
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I suspect that one of the reasons you don't see a 31" MM or similar length bow is due to technical factors. I can't imagine the string angle on a 31" draw MM. Even a 29" Tech-29 is borderline ludicrous w/ the angle of the limbs on those bows. There's alot more to it than just the company not wanting to produce shorty bows for long draw length archers. While other companies do it, their designs do not have nearly the same performance, and it's quite possible the stress levels are too much on the "pushing the limits" Bowtech designs. The Stalker being less performance oriented for the average draw length, probably gets into the near maximum threshold level of performance w/ the 31" draw length. The other bows in the 31" draw length are all heavier, and longer (i.e. More apt to handle the increased stress in the shooting system). Also even if Bowtech was simply to machine a larger module, you would run into problems of cam over-rotation at full draw & beyond normal cable serving wear in addition to possibly overstressing the design.
Heck, send me a check for $300 and I'll ship you out my 2000 ES option 60 LB'er. You can buy a 31" module for it!
JeffB
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
....was just what I had expected/assumed. Alot of the models that I have had past interest in (not only Bowtech's) are not offered in anything over 30 inches....most of the speed bows from PSE, Hoyt, several of the short High Country options, most of the Mathews lineup and now some of the Bowtech models.
Having said that, what I really want is one of these super fast bows with a large brace height and that are offered in my draw length....then, no matter what Matt posts, I can say, "yeah, but mine is 10 fps faster" <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Just out of curiousity...what do you think would happen if I were to order a Hypertec and would proceed to take the draw stop out of it? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I know you were joking..that is why I put the "
" at the end of my last statement......though it did allow me to express my feelings about the draw length issue.Jeff,
Your last paragraph....
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I suspect that one of the reasons you don't see a 31" MM or similar length bow is due to technical factors. I can't imagine the string angle on a 31" draw MM. Even a 29" Tech-29 is borderline ludicrous w/ the angle of the limbs on those bows. There's alot more to it than just the company not wanting to produce shorty bows for long draw length archers. While other companies do it, their designs do not have nearly the same performance, and it's quite possible the stress levels are too much on the "pushing the limits" Bowtech designs. The Stalker being less performance oriented for the average draw length, probably gets into the near maximum threshold level of performance w/ the 31" draw length. The other bows in the 31" draw length are all heavier, and longer (i.e. More apt to handle the increased stress in the shooting system). Also even if Bowtech was simply to machine a larger module, you would run into problems of cam over-rotation at full draw & beyond normal cable serving wear in addition to possibly overstressing the design.
Heck, send me a check for $300 and I'll ship you out my 2000 ES option 60 LB'er. You can buy a 31" module for it!
JeffB
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
....was just what I had expected/assumed. Alot of the models that I have had past interest in (not only Bowtech's) are not offered in anything over 30 inches....most of the speed bows from PSE, Hoyt, several of the short High Country options, most of the Mathews lineup and now some of the Bowtech models.
Having said that, what I really want is one of these super fast bows with a large brace height and that are offered in my draw length....then, no matter what Matt posts, I can say, "yeah, but mine is 10 fps faster" <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Just out of curiousity...what do you think would happen if I were to order a Hypertec and would proceed to take the draw stop out of it? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
02-05-2002, 11:08 AM
#26
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: In a Tarpon Boat
Posts: 846
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
I'm in the same boat as Frank with a 31" draw.
Frank, I agree that it's just as bad to draw too short.
Actually, I'm one of the few archers who would rather draw a little too long than short.
I've said this before...
I can't stand the feel of not quite getting there when I draw a bow. I'd rather draw sligtly too long anyday, jmo.
I consider Randy Ulmer the greatest 3-D shooter who ever lived.
Randy always drew too long. It didn't seem to cause him any problems.
If I got a Bowtech, I wold go with the Pro38, BK2, or new G-3.2
Sag.
02-05-2002, 11:22 AM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote<font size=1 face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Just out of curiousity...what do you think would happen if I were to order a Hypertec and would proceed to take the draw stop out of it? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
It would still be slower than a BT MM!
If you were serious,I don't think you would have a problem anyways. My HavocTec is meant to shoot w/out a stop if you want the 75%+ option. I've shot it that way for grins. I can't imagine that the new Hypertec would be a very shootable bow however, w/ it's lower brace, and 3" shorter axle to axle. The old one shot pretty well for a speedbow, but that's because it really wasn't that fast compared to the competition. Now they have made it faster by dropping the brace and are de-stabilizing the bow further with a shorter 33" AtoA. For someone w/ a 29"+ draw, that's pushing the envelope too far IMO.
I'm serious about the Stalker too. It really does shoot fast and nice for what it is. I've shot my dealer's as I spoke about, and it's a neat little bow. Somwhere along the lines of the original Havoc in noise and recoil w/ better speed.
Have you also looked at the Parker offerings? I believe the UL31 might come in a 31 draw, and I know that the 35 does. If there weren't so many BT models I want right now (I can't remember the last time when I wanted at least 4 bows from one manufacturers line at the same time), I'd be grabbing an UL35 or 38. Granted they are not quite as fast as a BT or have the "as solid" wall, but they do shoot very well,are very quiet and of solid construction.
JeffB
Just out of curiousity...what do you think would happen if I were to order a Hypertec and would proceed to take the draw stop out of it? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2 id=quote>
It would still be slower than a BT MM!
If you were serious,I don't think you would have a problem anyways. My HavocTec is meant to shoot w/out a stop if you want the 75%+ option. I've shot it that way for grins. I can't imagine that the new Hypertec would be a very shootable bow however, w/ it's lower brace, and 3" shorter axle to axle. The old one shot pretty well for a speedbow, but that's because it really wasn't that fast compared to the competition. Now they have made it faster by dropping the brace and are de-stabilizing the bow further with a shorter 33" AtoA. For someone w/ a 29"+ draw, that's pushing the envelope too far IMO.
I'm serious about the Stalker too. It really does shoot fast and nice for what it is. I've shot my dealer's as I spoke about, and it's a neat little bow. Somwhere along the lines of the original Havoc in noise and recoil w/ better speed.
Have you also looked at the Parker offerings? I believe the UL31 might come in a 31 draw, and I know that the 35 does. If there weren't so many BT models I want right now (I can't remember the last time when I wanted at least 4 bows from one manufacturers line at the same time), I'd be grabbing an UL35 or 38. Granted they are not quite as fast as a BT or have the "as solid" wall, but they do shoot very well,are very quiet and of solid construction.
JeffB
02-05-2002, 11:32 AM
#28
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Jeff,
Thank you for the suggestion. I looked at the Stalker when it first came out but I didn't see it as giving me a significant advantage over the original Havoc Redline or the Mathews FX. If I remember correctly the advertised speed on the Stalker is/was slower than both the original Havoc Redline (310) and the FX (310).
I can always hope though...for next year....when one of the manufacturers breaks the barrier surrounding this issue.
The Parker Ultralite31 is only offered to a 30 inch draw length. The Ultralite 35 is offered in a 31 inch draw length but it is about 10 fps slower than the UL31, so there is no advantage.
The original Havoc Redline is the closest I have ever come to perfection..but, alas, it is up for sale on Ebay as we speak....<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Sag.,
You know how I feel my friend...and I would be forced to look at the same bows....if I did go with a Bowtech at this point then it would be the BK2 (if they still make the higher brace height/longer draw length option)....but I just can't bring myself to shoot a bow with less than a 7 inch brace height....
..If they at least made a "Pro35"......with a 7 inch brace height, 320-325 fps IBO speed, 31 inch draw length and that Infinity cam......wwwwooooooo dogggy, I would buy one in a heartbeat...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Edited by - PABowhntr on 02/05/2002 12:35:22
Thank you for the suggestion. I looked at the Stalker when it first came out but I didn't see it as giving me a significant advantage over the original Havoc Redline or the Mathews FX. If I remember correctly the advertised speed on the Stalker is/was slower than both the original Havoc Redline (310) and the FX (310).
I can always hope though...for next year....when one of the manufacturers breaks the barrier surrounding this issue.
The Parker Ultralite31 is only offered to a 30 inch draw length. The Ultralite 35 is offered in a 31 inch draw length but it is about 10 fps slower than the UL31, so there is no advantage.
The original Havoc Redline is the closest I have ever come to perfection..but, alas, it is up for sale on Ebay as we speak....<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
Sag.,
You know how I feel my friend...and I would be forced to look at the same bows....if I did go with a Bowtech at this point then it would be the BK2 (if they still make the higher brace height/longer draw length option)....but I just can't bring myself to shoot a bow with less than a 7 inch brace height....
..If they at least made a "Pro35"...
...with a 7 inch brace height, 320-325 fps IBO speed, 31 inch draw length and that Infinity cam......wwwwooooooo dogggy, I would buy one in a heartbeat...<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>Edited by - PABowhntr on 02/05/2002 12:35:22
02-05-2002, 01:05 PM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
Frank,
Aye.. you said it yourself. ADVERTISED speed. I don't know about you, but I have never shot a Havoc that hit IBO speeds, redline, C-cam or otherwise (at least at AMO 30" length).
And if the BK2 would be to your liking why not a Pro 38 (same 37.25" axle to axle), G-3 (Again 37.25'), or specifically the 2002 Extreme Solo option 2 (35 1/2", 7" brace, draws to 31"
?
Basically the Extreme Solo option 2 fits your specifications, and w/ your 31" draw, you would be in the high 3 teens to 320 FPS range. It's lighter than a Pro-series riser as well.
Now snake out of that one!
We WILL make you a convert!
JeffB
Aye.. you said it yourself. ADVERTISED speed. I don't know about you, but I have never shot a Havoc that hit IBO speeds, redline, C-cam or otherwise (at least at AMO 30" length).
And if the BK2 would be to your liking why not a Pro 38 (same 37.25" axle to axle), G-3 (Again 37.25'), or specifically the 2002 Extreme Solo option 2 (35 1/2", 7" brace, draws to 31"
?Basically the Extreme Solo option 2 fits your specifications, and w/ your 31" draw, you would be in the high 3 teens to 320 FPS range. It's lighter than a Pro-series riser as well.
Now snake out of that one!
We WILL make you a convert!
JeffB
02-05-2002, 02:54 PM
#30
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: I shot the BowTech "Patriot" :-)
I don't know Jeff...my Havoc Redline and the FX I tried both shot pretty darn to close to their advertised IBO speeds with IBO setups...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
I took a gander at the Option 2 Extreme Solo....but 6.6 inches isn't 7 and 7 is the lowest I will go on brace height....it is funny but I think the Extreme Solo's riser looks a heck of alot like PSE's Carrera...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>...
....but that would probably be the closest one of the bunch.
I looked at Matt's Pro 38...and the BK2...both have attractive stats.....but I just can't seem to get myself to shoot anything over 34 inches axle to axle....
Thanks for the time and effort though.........it is going to take alot to "convert" this one....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I took a gander at the Option 2 Extreme Solo....but 6.6 inches isn't 7 and 7 is the lowest I will go on brace height....it is funny but I think the Extreme Solo's riser looks a heck of alot like PSE's Carrera...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>...
....but that would probably be the closest one of the bunch.
I looked at Matt's Pro 38...and the BK2...both have attractive stats.....but I just can't seem to get myself to shoot anything over 34 inches axle to axle....
Thanks for the time and effort though.........it is going to take alot to "convert" this one....<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>