JOE PA

I think it comes down to personal preference. I' ve heard the Darton CPS cam(s) described as harsh by some, smooth by others. I personally prefer the early peak myself. Bowtech' s Infinity cam used to seem very harsh to me, especially to let down without shooting. I have drawn both a VFT and a single cam Patriot (both " 03s), and they have certainly been smoothed out nicely.

I have two similar hard twin cam bows with both sets of cams designed (I think) by Kevin Strother. My " Frankenstein" bow has the Oregon Black Knight cams on it, and IMO, it is very smooth to draw, peaks earlier, and rolls into the letoff valley (which is extremely short) sooner than the Bowtech Pro 38 DC. The Bowtech starts off much easier to pull. With the 28" modules on these cams, and the grip off the bow, it draws fairly smooth to the end, but drops off quicker than the Oregon cams. With the grip on and the 29" modules in place, the bow definitely has a " hump" to pull over before reaching letoff. Maybe that is why I decided to give up a little performance and shoot the bow with the shorter modules and bare riser.
On a positive note, I did get " caught" at half-draw 3 times by the doe I shot a week ago. Even with shoulders that have given me some problems, I was able to complete the draw while sitting when she finally stopped looking up at me.

I read a few years back that Browning had some trouble with bent axles that was supposedly caused by hard cams that peaked too early. I would think that if the peak was reached early, then more force may have to be absorbed by the system when the limbs and cam(s) come to brace. That may be a factor as to why Dartons seem to have more noise and vibration than similar bows by other companies. They also have not really focused on cutting recoil with riser/limb design (with the exception of the Rampage and Avalanche), and the CPS cam makes no attempt to use a countermass type of cam to oppose the motion of the limbs like the perimeter weighted one cams, or the Hoyt Cam and a Half.

Straightarrow

Perceived smoothness probably has a lot to do with how each of us draws, and our physical makeup. I have some rotator cuff problems that give me pain early in the draw. If I can get the draw through the first 8-10" , I can finish it.

I' m also quite sure I use both my shoulder and back muscles throughout the whole draw. Different areas of the shoulder and back are used, depending on what point in the draw I' m at. Once I get to a certain point in the draw, the weakened muscles in my shoulder are not in use, and I can get it the rest of the way back easily.

corb

I am in the same category as Straightarrow. If the draw cycle peaks early I cannot pull the bow back. I can exert the most strength in the mid to later part of the cycle. Shoulder problems here as well. So for me a smooth draw is one that ramps linearly to about 2/3 or 3/4 of the way and then rolls off.

ijimmy

Range , I just got back from Pa and darton finaly sent my modual in the mail , at no charge I might add . Got the mavrick extreme twisted up correctly and went outside and shot a few arrows . Man this is a sweet shoot' n son of a gun .I cant believe they dont even have it listed in the catalouge for 03 .

MR. BOWTECH RD

I think everyone will be pleasantly suprised by the draw force on the 04' s. just because Diamond pays a royalty to use my patent doesn' t mean they set a bow up with the same pre-load, same cam rotation or even the same cam and mod geometry, which by the way is different.[]

The 04 Patriot hits peak at about 6.5" into the draw cycle, but starts dropping off faster than last years cams.[8D]

Yes, most people can draw more weight if the cams reach peak sooner only if the cam and mods are designed to drop off of maintained peak weight earlier in the draw cycle.

PABowhntr

My affinity for Bowtech aside, isn' t it nice to have the chief engineer behind a major bow manufacturer respond to technical posts? Rhetorical ofcourse.

Range,

I gotta admit, when I first saw the title of this thread I thought someone has misspelled FOC and therefore did not open it until now. Sorry.

I think you bring up some good points. JeffB has been saying something similar to this for few years now and I can be one to attest to the fact that the ' 03 Pat SC' s cam is definitely smoother than the infinity cam used the previous year. Based on what Kevin just posted I would assume that is because of your hypothesis.

Great, just great....now I wish I had ordered an ' 04 Pat SC instead of the Might Might.....

Pinwheel 12

I think that the realization that speed certainly isn' t everything is finally coming to the forefront. Many of us used to play the speed game back in the late 80' s and early 90' s, and some who were just coming into the sport saw this and simply thought that they too had to have the fastest mousetrap made, and carried the tradition on for another " generation" . Hence we contrinued to see many " rat-trap" designs with nasty cams and low brace heights, etc, etc. This mentality is definately waning(finally) in recent years IMO-- guys now want smooth, easy drawing designs that offer competitive speed. Why the change? I personally think more and more people are realizing that a bow with a decent ATA and brace height, coupled with a forgiving cam design just shoots better for them. And, it is certainly no fun to sit in a tree in cold weather for 3 hrs or more and then try to get your bow back if it has a nasty FDC, THEN try not to creep a 1/32, because if you do the arrow is gone or your shoulder becomes toast, or both...All for what--- an extra 20-40 or even 60 FPS at 20-30 yds? LOL.

Most hunters in the USA hunt whitetails, so huge buckets of KE isn' t necessary either. Even Elk can be taken with comparable equipment. So IMHO all of the speed/energy hype is just that. Fun to watch go thru a chrono, but otherwise pretty much useless unless you are hunting Rhino or other massive game. In which case you will shoot an 80lb bow anyway.

I have noticed that even Bowtech has opted to increase their brace heights slightly and incorporate a little less " nastiness" to their cam designs in the past couple of years. Kevin and the rest of the crew here at " bowtechnet.com" [&:] can certainly tell you more on this but it seems to be the case. This brings their overall actual speeds down to roughly the same level as many other manufacturers, and consequently I see they are now leaning away from the speed hype marketing technique and to the " new" sales gimmick/marketing strategy of lesser vibration/quietness with the introduction of the VFT. Good move IMHO.

Smooth shooting and great handling bows will IMHO be the predominant characteristics of future designs for all manufacturers, this I am sure of. In fact many manufacturers are already there and are selling well! Altho speeds will forever increase with time, IMHO we have pretty much settled into an " acceptable range" for at least a few years until both technology and materials once again can give us room to advance. JMHO, Pinwheel 12

Rangeball

SUH-WEEEET! Another point for the ' 04 Pat

I' ve pretty much narrowed my focus down to this bow, the new Merlin bow that we only know will be 33" ATA, a Darton AE or something else they' ll offer and wait see what Diamond brings to the table... And I still want to draw a Liberty. That' s pretty narrow, right?

Looks like a great time to be in the market for a new bow...

By the way, Pinwheel was nice enough to email me a graph plotting Merlin' s Omega Cam FDC, but I' ve got no idea how to post it as an attachment or anything. Hell, I can' t even print the whole page out . I' m such an idiot...

I can forward it to someone literate if they' ll be so kind to post it somehow... Any takers?

Rangeball

I finally got the Merlin FDC graph to print out, had to export it to paint, invert it then print. I can' t believe I figured out how to do all that. I' m at work, and it' s not like I could ask for tech support here in the office

The graph is for the Omega Hybrid cam, 60# bow with a 7" brace and a 28" draw length.

The draw ramps up to 55# over the first 7" , then gradually climbs from 55# to hit 60# peak 8" later at 22" , then rollercoaster drops (best way to give you a visual, the first big hill) 5" to 27" , and provides an inch of valley to the wall at 28" .

If it wasn' t for guys I wholeheartedly trust like Pinwheel, Blackfrog and Saggitarius stating how smooth this cam system was, honestly, based on how it looks on paper and guestimating with the tape measure test, I would suspect the FDC would be perceived as harder to pull than those who hit peak earlier in the FDC... I wish I could draw one versus buying one on a leap of faith, but I know those guys wouldn' t steer us wrong.

PABowhntr

Great point Kevin. I cannot tell you how many times I have mentioned to folks that speed is great but at what cost. I, for one, don' t want to be sitting in a treestand and not be able to draw the bow back or have the bowstring slap my arm upon release because the brace height is too short.

What I am really happy to see is that Bowtech is now able to get those same great speeds without sacrificing things like a long brace height (Patriot DC...7 5/8 inch brace height...330+ IBO and a decent valley this year) or a smooth draw cycle (Patriot SC has an even smoother draw cycle this year while the speed rating has gone up to around 325 fps). It definitely is nice to finally be able to have your cake and eat it too.