65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
02-08-2002, 03:25 PM
#21
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
Arthur,
I don't know what you mean by a P&Y argument. At least my post had nothing to do with P&Y. As far as holding for a minute or more. I can, and have several times on animals. 15-17 pound holding weight is no big deal. 25-30 pounds - now that's another story. I'm sure I can hold the lighter weight for much longer without shaking. For hunting purposes, the high letoffs serve a very useful purpose, regardless of any P&Y issues.
I don't know what you mean by a P&Y argument. At least my post had nothing to do with P&Y. As far as holding for a minute or more. I can, and have several times on animals. 15-17 pound holding weight is no big deal. 25-30 pounds - now that's another story. I'm sure I can hold the lighter weight for much longer without shaking. For hunting purposes, the high letoffs serve a very useful purpose, regardless of any P&Y issues.
02-08-2002, 07:14 PM
#22
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ohio
Posts: 134
RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
Geezzz!!!!! Where were all you guys when I got my ass blasted by maytom and berreta390 for saying 80% let-off sucked?????? I hope they read this topic and now understand where I was coming from. I'm with you guys 65% is the way to fly.
02-08-2002, 07:21 PM
#24
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
Some manufacturers even feel less than that is good, as well. Both Merlin and Martin will be offering 55% options on some of their eccentrics for 2002. Merlin will also be offering the option of hard wall or "mushy" valley, the first-ever option of it's kind on the new Supernova target bow. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
02-08-2002, 08:08 PM
#25
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Pekin IL USA
Posts: 2
RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
My opinion is that if you have to OVERBOW to get the holding weight you need, then you are screwing up your FORM from the get go and ending up vastly less stable and accurate because your shootin platform is out of line trying to get the silly bow back.
The lower holding weights also have the effects of making you THINK you can hold longer, which you can. Problem is that it is FACT that your mind can only focus on a subject for 8 to 10 seconds MAX before it breaks "lock" and then you have to start concentration all over.
So, if you're holding and supposedly 'aiming' for 10, 12, 15 seconds or more, you're only FOOLING YOURSELF - - becuase you are NOT focused that entire time whether you want to admit it or not. You are really re-starting the engine a couple of times during that long of a holding secquence.
The other problem is when you have heavier poundage to get the holding weight up, you have to knock things out of correct alignment just to get the bow back, then it SLAMS into your anchor rapidly, jerking you into another position, you settle in, realign, and try to stablize things - - losing more valuable concentration timea and increasing your shot sequence time. ALL BAD THINGS.
If, on the other hand you have LOWER poundage, and HIGHER holding weight, then subconsciously, you KNOW that you cannot dilly dally around playing patsy cake with your back tension and you WILL get with the program and execute a shot. The increase in holding weight will also give you a much crisper release and a better follow thru towards the target and it cannot be FAKED.
Look down the shooting line sometime and pay heed to those shooting low holding weights and those shooting the higher holding weight - - I said HOLDING WEIGHT - - if you look at those that are OVERBOWED, you get a different picture all together (a WORSE one, hahha). You will so so much 'fakey brakey' release 'explosions' that are actually IMPOSLSIONS that you ever thought imaginable.
What you'll see is the shot go off, a DEAD release, and then a backwards FORCED and FAKED movement of the release side that LOOKS cool, but the problem is it isn't at the release of the shot, it is a mentally thought out thing to LOOK COOL. I've filmed lots of shooters and pointed it out - - at first they deny they're faking it, but when they see themselve on video - - the proof is in the seeing it!!
Personally, I think 80% is only marginally OK for hunting, 65% OK, but 55% or 50% would be just fine.
People are overbowing a lot for SPEED, and only a small percentage are overbowing for a decent holding weight. The SMART ones are getting the holding weight up there as high as they can handle AND having the draw weight within their limits of CONTROL. They don't go for the SPEED, they go for the consistency, the ability to shoot the bow with the first shot of the day STRONG and the last shot of the day just like the First - STRONG.
VERY FEW can shoot 70 pounds peak weight all day without tiring, but most won't fess up to it.
Enough said, personally I'll opt for the 55% let off, save my shoulders, and not have to watch the arrow chatter across the rest as I try to draw back the bow.
If you have ANY arrow chatter on that rest as you try to draw it, if you have ANY lowering of the drawing elbow, if you have ANY swiveling of the hips, or tightening of the facial muscles as you draw, or if you sky the bow, or grip the release, or tighten up the forearms, or raise the bow shoulder while you are drawing the bow, then you ARE OVERBOWED, plain and simple and you will never reach potential - - NEVER.
field14
The lower holding weights also have the effects of making you THINK you can hold longer, which you can. Problem is that it is FACT that your mind can only focus on a subject for 8 to 10 seconds MAX before it breaks "lock" and then you have to start concentration all over.
So, if you're holding and supposedly 'aiming' for 10, 12, 15 seconds or more, you're only FOOLING YOURSELF - - becuase you are NOT focused that entire time whether you want to admit it or not. You are really re-starting the engine a couple of times during that long of a holding secquence.
The other problem is when you have heavier poundage to get the holding weight up, you have to knock things out of correct alignment just to get the bow back, then it SLAMS into your anchor rapidly, jerking you into another position, you settle in, realign, and try to stablize things - - losing more valuable concentration timea and increasing your shot sequence time. ALL BAD THINGS.
If, on the other hand you have LOWER poundage, and HIGHER holding weight, then subconsciously, you KNOW that you cannot dilly dally around playing patsy cake with your back tension and you WILL get with the program and execute a shot. The increase in holding weight will also give you a much crisper release and a better follow thru towards the target and it cannot be FAKED.
Look down the shooting line sometime and pay heed to those shooting low holding weights and those shooting the higher holding weight - - I said HOLDING WEIGHT - - if you look at those that are OVERBOWED, you get a different picture all together (a WORSE one, hahha). You will so so much 'fakey brakey' release 'explosions' that are actually IMPOSLSIONS that you ever thought imaginable.
What you'll see is the shot go off, a DEAD release, and then a backwards FORCED and FAKED movement of the release side that LOOKS cool, but the problem is it isn't at the release of the shot, it is a mentally thought out thing to LOOK COOL. I've filmed lots of shooters and pointed it out - - at first they deny they're faking it, but when they see themselve on video - - the proof is in the seeing it!!
Personally, I think 80% is only marginally OK for hunting, 65% OK, but 55% or 50% would be just fine.
People are overbowing a lot for SPEED, and only a small percentage are overbowing for a decent holding weight. The SMART ones are getting the holding weight up there as high as they can handle AND having the draw weight within their limits of CONTROL. They don't go for the SPEED, they go for the consistency, the ability to shoot the bow with the first shot of the day STRONG and the last shot of the day just like the First - STRONG.
VERY FEW can shoot 70 pounds peak weight all day without tiring, but most won't fess up to it.
Enough said, personally I'll opt for the 55% let off, save my shoulders, and not have to watch the arrow chatter across the rest as I try to draw back the bow.
If you have ANY arrow chatter on that rest as you try to draw it, if you have ANY lowering of the drawing elbow, if you have ANY swiveling of the hips, or tightening of the facial muscles as you draw, or if you sky the bow, or grip the release, or tighten up the forearms, or raise the bow shoulder while you are drawing the bow, then you ARE OVERBOWED, plain and simple and you will never reach potential - - NEVER.
field14
02-08-2002, 08:47 PM
#26
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
Field14,
Your points are well taken and appear to be the result of a lot of experience, but they seem directed towards target shooting, not hunting. To shoot a 70 lb hunting bow, I don't need to be able to shoot it all day without tiring, just 30-40 practice shots each day and one good shot when it counts. 70 lbs is not a problem under that scenerio. Also, the reason I use 70+ lbs for hunting is not for speed, but for penetration. If I hit the shoulder blade, I want to be sure I still have a good chance at it being a killing shot.
Also, when holding at full draw for a minute or more, there is no "focus" or "aiming" going on for that full time, just waiting for the deer to step into a good opening, then focus, aim and shoot like any other shot. That said, I'm quite sure that when I can no longer handle 70 lbs for hunting, I will go to the lower letoff bows. I agree that holding 10 lbs on full draw would be too little.
Your points are well taken and appear to be the result of a lot of experience, but they seem directed towards target shooting, not hunting. To shoot a 70 lb hunting bow, I don't need to be able to shoot it all day without tiring, just 30-40 practice shots each day and one good shot when it counts. 70 lbs is not a problem under that scenerio. Also, the reason I use 70+ lbs for hunting is not for speed, but for penetration. If I hit the shoulder blade, I want to be sure I still have a good chance at it being a killing shot.
Also, when holding at full draw for a minute or more, there is no "focus" or "aiming" going on for that full time, just waiting for the deer to step into a good opening, then focus, aim and shoot like any other shot. That said, I'm quite sure that when I can no longer handle 70 lbs for hunting, I will go to the lower letoff bows. I agree that holding 10 lbs on full draw would be too little.
02-08-2002, 09:18 PM
#27
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
Straightarrow, usually whenever someone has used the 'advocate' word, P&Y seems to come along right behind it. Sorry if you didn't mean it that way. I've been hanging out on the fight site lately and I'm a little punchy.
Those of us that understood have been telling people for years, and getting visciously flamed for it (as OHarcher seems to have discovered), that people have been sold a bill of goods with high letoff. They didn't come out with high letoff to improve shooting, enhance accuracy or be more effective on game. They came out with it to sell bows. I've never been able to believe that the high letoff and speed crazes could ever cohabitate the same fad!
Quite frankly, I believe the usefullness of being able to hold a long time with game in front of you is more smoke and mirrors. I know some people have done it and gotten their deer. But it's far better to learn the proper time to draw on a game animal to get the shot off quickly without a lot of undo holding. I guarantee, many bad hits can probably be tracked down to someone holding for too long, letting buck fever creep into their mind and blowing their concentration.
Field 14's response is perfect. That ought to be required reading for everyone.
Those of us that understood have been telling people for years, and getting visciously flamed for it (as OHarcher seems to have discovered), that people have been sold a bill of goods with high letoff. They didn't come out with high letoff to improve shooting, enhance accuracy or be more effective on game. They came out with it to sell bows. I've never been able to believe that the high letoff and speed crazes could ever cohabitate the same fad!
Quite frankly, I believe the usefullness of being able to hold a long time with game in front of you is more smoke and mirrors. I know some people have done it and gotten their deer. But it's far better to learn the proper time to draw on a game animal to get the shot off quickly without a lot of undo holding. I guarantee, many bad hits can probably be tracked down to someone holding for too long, letting buck fever creep into their mind and blowing their concentration.
Field 14's response is perfect. That ought to be required reading for everyone.
02-09-2002, 05:32 AM
#29
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
Yep,Field 14 drilled it. Far too many people have been duped into this type of thinking by others and lots of hype and advertising, but some of us know (and see) the real deal every day. I can't count the number of shooters that come into the shop that are still drawing higher poundages and cannot control it. Amazing. Back in the early 80's it was even worse and is probably what started it all, there were no limitations for 3D shooting, so everyone was competeing with 85# bows and 200g arrows to get the most speed out of their aluminum shafts, then going out and trying to hunt with the same setup that fall. The 80% letoff started there,(Mountaineer Archery) as a way to make pulling the higher weights that people THOUGHT they needed easier. Then of course the safety restrictions were implemented,(5g per lb) carbon arrows came out, and there was no further need to pull trememdous amounts of weight anyway. Slowly people have come back to earth and are getting back into a bow that truly fits them and can be controlled, but there are still alot of "macho" guys out there that simply cannot see themselves pulling 50lbs, which honestly is what some of them should be pulling. Do this test and see--- sit in a chair, with your bow out to the side you draw from. Reach out and grab the string, pick your feet an inch or so off the floor, and in one fluid movement draw the bow from rest to anchor. I do this with customers, and it's amazing what kind of weight most guys need to get down to to be comfortable. No shaking, straining, etc, like Field 14 stated above. When you are at a correct drawlength and correctly bowed, you will become a much more proficient shooter. 55-65% letoff will definately serve to keep one more "honest" about this, as well as having more tension through the system which makes for less human-error accuracy problems. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 02/09/2002 06:36:43
Edited by - Pinwheel 12 on 02/09/2002 06:36:43
02-09-2002, 07:00 AM
#30
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: 65% or 80% let off, which do you choose?
If a person can easily handle 70+ lbs, would you guys still recommend the lower letoffs? I guess I'm still looking for a holding weight number that is adequate to reduce torque. Is there a number or is everyone different?