Bare shaft planing
10-08-2003, 06:31 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Posts: 5
Bare shaft planing
When bare shaft testing arrows is it " normal" for the bare shafts to go in the target
a little croocked or should they be straight in?
The fletched shafts are going in straight and the bare shafts are hitting a little lower
but they are cocked, some left and some right.
a little croocked or should they be straight in?
The fletched shafts are going in straight and the bare shafts are hitting a little lower
but they are cocked, some left and some right.
10-08-2003, 07:14 AM
#2
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oakland City Indiana USA
Posts: 524
RE: Bare shaft planing
I' d like to see thoughts on this one as well. I get the same thing except all of my shots are kicked the same way. I think the inconsistency is something to worry about for sure.
-Chief
-Chief
10-08-2003, 07:36 AM
#4
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Bare shaft planing
Bareshaft tuning out of a compound with a release is debatable. It' s can be a " vodoo science" . Some believe in it, others say it' s bunk. But for ME and MY personal experiences, I do like to use bareshafting as another aid in getting my hunting rigs to their best. For my target rigs, I still like to group tune to find the best adjustments out to 80yds. But for my hunting setup I want to see that bareshaft impact very closely with fletched shafts at all yardages out to 40yds.
I do some bareshafting with the approximate FOC of fletched shafts. I do this by fletching the shaft, and then trimming the top part of the vanes to leave the base of the vane and the glue on the shaft. And then gluing a small BB on the end of the nock before inserting in the shaft will get very close results as far as matching FOC of the fletched shafts. Or I have done a light dip-coat of paint for my bareshaft before fletching to get the FOC close. With some tinkering you can get a b/s very close to final weight and FOC of a fletched shaft.
My b/s trials are mostly for left/right considerations, and I' m not too worried about up/down as long as it' s reasonable. The drag portion of the fletching will account for some of the up/down differences compared to fletched shafts. I know guys say it' s a waste of time, and I really respect their opinions, but I' ve had too much success doing things this way. With the approximate same FOC bareshaft, I can see tiny spine differences that I wouldn' t have been able to detect very well with fletched shafts. Example: I fletched up my hunting arrows along with the FOC bareshaft. I wasn' t quite sure if the shafts were spined correctly for the bow when I went to the range. I adjusted for the best grouping of fletched shafts and then threw the b/s out to the bale and it was off quite a bit. The only thing I did then was adjust the bow poundage and kept everything else constant. With each turn of the limb bolts I' d shoot a group with the bareshaft included and I could see the b/s walking across the target as the poundage changed. The small arrow spine reactions were apparent when changing the poundage of the bow.
An approximate FOC b/s can help to let me know how much " work" my fletching is doing to correct arrow flight. If my bareshaft impacts very closely with fletched shafts, my fletching is not having to do any flight corrections. And if your fletching is having to do a lot of work, that doesn' t mix well when putting on broadheads. Field points let you get away with murder as far as not planing the arrow off in the wrong direction, but fixed blade broadheads are very telling.
When I can get my FOC b/s and my fletched shafts hitting very close from 10 to 40yds, it seems like a breeze to put on fixed blade broadheads and requires very little adjustment. And it isn' t always easy and requires a lot of range time and tinkering- sometimes I need to change tip weights, or cut some length off my shafts (I purposely start with my shafts 1" long just for this case). I have yet to find a good arrow stretcher. Sometimes you need to tweak centershot position. A note of caution: This should NOT be done with thin-walled aluminums!! Having the bareshaft in the target on an angle can be a slight centershot adjustment, or a spine adjustment, or a little of both. Like I said, it can be very time consuming and " tinker-intensive" to get things together. But it is pretty cool to see a bareshaft grouping right with fletched shafts out to 50yds.... (guys on the range always get a kick out of that).
I think the results are worth the effort FOR ME- I' m not saying everyone should do it, and I have full respect for those that say it' s a waste of time. And I don' t think you have to do this to get decent broadhead groupings either. I just like to tinker and experiment.....
I do some bareshafting with the approximate FOC of fletched shafts. I do this by fletching the shaft, and then trimming the top part of the vanes to leave the base of the vane and the glue on the shaft. And then gluing a small BB on the end of the nock before inserting in the shaft will get very close results as far as matching FOC of the fletched shafts. Or I have done a light dip-coat of paint for my bareshaft before fletching to get the FOC close. With some tinkering you can get a b/s very close to final weight and FOC of a fletched shaft.
My b/s trials are mostly for left/right considerations, and I' m not too worried about up/down as long as it' s reasonable. The drag portion of the fletching will account for some of the up/down differences compared to fletched shafts. I know guys say it' s a waste of time, and I really respect their opinions, but I' ve had too much success doing things this way. With the approximate same FOC bareshaft, I can see tiny spine differences that I wouldn' t have been able to detect very well with fletched shafts. Example: I fletched up my hunting arrows along with the FOC bareshaft. I wasn' t quite sure if the shafts were spined correctly for the bow when I went to the range. I adjusted for the best grouping of fletched shafts and then threw the b/s out to the bale and it was off quite a bit. The only thing I did then was adjust the bow poundage and kept everything else constant. With each turn of the limb bolts I' d shoot a group with the bareshaft included and I could see the b/s walking across the target as the poundage changed. The small arrow spine reactions were apparent when changing the poundage of the bow.
An approximate FOC b/s can help to let me know how much " work" my fletching is doing to correct arrow flight. If my bareshaft impacts very closely with fletched shafts, my fletching is not having to do any flight corrections. And if your fletching is having to do a lot of work, that doesn' t mix well when putting on broadheads. Field points let you get away with murder as far as not planing the arrow off in the wrong direction, but fixed blade broadheads are very telling.
When I can get my FOC b/s and my fletched shafts hitting very close from 10 to 40yds, it seems like a breeze to put on fixed blade broadheads and requires very little adjustment. And it isn' t always easy and requires a lot of range time and tinkering- sometimes I need to change tip weights, or cut some length off my shafts (I purposely start with my shafts 1" long just for this case). I have yet to find a good arrow stretcher. Sometimes you need to tweak centershot position. A note of caution: This should NOT be done with thin-walled aluminums!! Having the bareshaft in the target on an angle can be a slight centershot adjustment, or a spine adjustment, or a little of both. Like I said, it can be very time consuming and " tinker-intensive" to get things together. But it is pretty cool to see a bareshaft grouping right with fletched shafts out to 50yds.... (guys on the range always get a kick out of that).
I think the results are worth the effort FOR ME- I' m not saying everyone should do it, and I have full respect for those that say it' s a waste of time. And I don' t think you have to do this to get decent broadhead groupings either. I just like to tinker and experiment.....
10-08-2003, 10:57 AM
#5
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Posts: 5
RE: Bare shaft planing
Black Frog, Thanks for the info.
A couple of points I probably should have stated in the first post.
We are doing this on my sons bow, and he reminded me that they were cocked up a little also. We were only at 10 yards when we did this. is that to close?
We were going to shoot back farther but we ran out of light.
Could the left / right be a torque issue? We will check the center shot tonight and make sure it' s O.K.
Question? Is bare shaft testing for the most part only used when tunning for broadheads, or is it a good tool for all types of shooting?
Currently he is only set up for target shooting, It will be another year before he is old enough and strong enough to go hunting.
Not sure if it matters but his current set up is:
Hoyt Banshee
35 Lbs.
20" draw
23 " ACC 3-00, 3, 3" feathers w/50 grain bulge points
release
string loop
TM Hunter rest.
A couple of points I probably should have stated in the first post.
We are doing this on my sons bow, and he reminded me that they were cocked up a little also. We were only at 10 yards when we did this. is that to close?
We were going to shoot back farther but we ran out of light.
Could the left / right be a torque issue? We will check the center shot tonight and make sure it' s O.K.
Question? Is bare shaft testing for the most part only used when tunning for broadheads, or is it a good tool for all types of shooting?
Currently he is only set up for target shooting, It will be another year before he is old enough and strong enough to go hunting.
Not sure if it matters but his current set up is:
Hoyt Banshee
35 Lbs.
20" draw
23 " ACC 3-00, 3, 3" feathers w/50 grain bulge points
release
string loop
TM Hunter rest.
10-08-2003, 11:16 AM
#6
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: Bare shaft planing
Blackfrog I got a question for ya . Assuming you are a right hand archer . Are you saying as you back off on the limb bolts the arrows are walking to the left ? This is the implication given by eastons tune chart , but they state that for finger archers useing traditional equipment shooting off the shelf or with a plunger button . By the way if this is the case that is the way the arrow tracts for me allso , I just hate backing off the bolts ,but its a pain to try to set your arrows to your bow , much easyer to adjust your bow to the arrow , I just hate backing those bolts out .
10-08-2003, 11:18 AM
#7
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Bare shaft planing
I try my b/s tests at 10yd increments (10, 20, 30, 40yds) to get a better picture of what' s going on before adjusting something. To me, it seems that without checking a variety of distances you may miss some indicating information.
If the b/s is not consistently hitting the same area (sometimes b/s left of fletched group, sometimes right) at a given distance, then yes, I would think that torqueing the riser could be the culprit. The b/s should be fairly repeatable in placement.
I can' t speak for others, but I use b/s test for obtaining better flight from broadheads and much closer grouping of broadhead impact vs field point impact. I don' t use b/s test for my target bows. Once again- that' s just the way I do things so take it for what it' s worth. For target bows I group tune at different ranges to find the optimum adjustments in poundage, spine, centershot, etc., that will yield the best results.
If the b/s is not consistently hitting the same area (sometimes b/s left of fletched group, sometimes right) at a given distance, then yes, I would think that torqueing the riser could be the culprit. The b/s should be fairly repeatable in placement.
I can' t speak for others, but I use b/s test for obtaining better flight from broadheads and much closer grouping of broadhead impact vs field point impact. I don' t use b/s test for my target bows. Once again- that' s just the way I do things so take it for what it' s worth. For target bows I group tune at different ranges to find the optimum adjustments in poundage, spine, centershot, etc., that will yield the best results.
10-08-2003, 11:35 AM
#8
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: Bare shaft planing
ij-
For that instance I mentioned, yes, as I backed off the limb bolts my b/s was walking to the left on the target face with each group. I then went back and chopped some length off my arrow shafts and started over again.
Now keep in mind that you can also move a b/s closer or farther to the left or right by making slight centershot adjustments. So which is it? Spine or centershot? It may take a lot of tinker-time to determine which one will provide the best results. If the spine is off quite a bit you may never be able to get the b/s to group well with fletched shafts, no matter where you put the centershot.
Lots of trial and error and you can see why people don' t want to mess with doing it.
For that instance I mentioned, yes, as I backed off the limb bolts my b/s was walking to the left on the target face with each group. I then went back and chopped some length off my arrow shafts and started over again.
Now keep in mind that you can also move a b/s closer or farther to the left or right by making slight centershot adjustments. So which is it? Spine or centershot? It may take a lot of tinker-time to determine which one will provide the best results. If the spine is off quite a bit you may never be able to get the b/s to group well with fletched shafts, no matter where you put the centershot.
Lots of trial and error and you can see why people don' t want to mess with doing it.
10-08-2003, 12:27 PM
#9
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Bare shaft planing
If done properly, paper tuning would require exactly the same amount of trial and error and be every bit as much of a pain as bareshafting. Very few people do it properly though.
No point in me going into the how-to part of bareshafting. Black Frog' s got it hammered.
As for bare shafts kicking one way or another in the target, sometimes it' s the tune and sometimes it' s the target. Without fletchings steering the arrow straight, the point can drift off into a softer part of the target. Even if it' s initial contact was straight on, the shaft will be sticking crooked in the target.
No point in me going into the how-to part of bareshafting. Black Frog' s got it hammered.
As for bare shafts kicking one way or another in the target, sometimes it' s the tune and sometimes it' s the target. Without fletchings steering the arrow straight, the point can drift off into a softer part of the target. Even if it' s initial contact was straight on, the shaft will be sticking crooked in the target.
10-08-2003, 05:50 PM
#10
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location:
Posts: 5
RE: Bare shaft planing
Thanks for all the help!!
Black Frog, When you mentioned " center shot" were you refering to the procedure in the Easton tunning guide for " balanced limb center" where you mark the center on the limbs and then make a mark 3/16" to the left and then line up the string with those marks and sight down the arrow. If thats what you were talking about, it looks like it' s dead center. If that' s not what you were talking about could you expand?
It' s raining here so we won' t be able to get in any shooting untill tomorrow.
Black Frog, When you mentioned " center shot" were you refering to the procedure in the Easton tunning guide for " balanced limb center" where you mark the center on the limbs and then make a mark 3/16" to the left and then line up the string with those marks and sight down the arrow. If thats what you were talking about, it looks like it' s dead center. If that' s not what you were talking about could you expand?
It' s raining here so we won' t be able to get in any shooting untill tomorrow.