c903

Hmmmmm! All those problems, all those headaches, all the effort, and never total confidence that something will not drastically change from one moment to the next, at a much higher cost; all for some non-existent and mythical, overwhelming, " Never-happen-Charlie," advantage to shoot just a few times, or maybe not at all, during an entire season at a deer at just over and most often under 20 yards.

If ever there was an ultimate example of practicing the art of wasted effort for naught, the carbon arrow issue wins hands down. For what, one should ask; for a few more fps that does not amount to anything in the big picture? The gain vs. loss is like adding 2+4 or 4+2. In the end, it all adds up to the same number.

Straightarrow

Doesn' t this same logic apply to the advantage of aluminum or A/C/C over carbon. At just over and most often under 20 yards, does it really make a difference? It hasn' t for me. I' ve shot lots of animals with carbons, without a problem. With the distance we typically shoot at, and the accuracy required for a kill at these distances, it just doesn' t matter. If I was shooting at 40 or 50 yards, I' d probably have a different opinion, but all my shots are under 25 yards.

JeffB

Without going into a huge thesis and debate (for me at least ) I like carbon for several reasons

1) Increased durability
2) Increased penetration (some will disagree, but IME that is the case)
3) Better shaft recovery/stiffness for easier tuning from set-up to set-up
4) Flatter trajectory

As I’ve found over the past years #1 is not always a given with most IC carbons, since they wear out at a quicker rate.

Where I currently hunt a 30 to 35 yard shot is not out of the question in some cases. In my home state a 40 yard shot is quite common hunting crop field edges. It took one season of misjudging my yardage by 5 yards or so and barely shooting over the same very nice buck’s back both times with heavy, slower arrows (aluminum). First time I judged him for a tad over 30 and he was at about 25 yards, the second time I judged him for 40 to 41 and he was around 36. Both were good shots and I would have center punched his lungs had I got the yardage correct, instead I grazed his back (I’ll also not that both times he didn’t even jump the string. He was completely relaxed and due to the situation quite likely barely heard the bow).

With my current set-ups and the speed they produce the difference 5 yards makes is negligible, and I would have drilled that buck the first time.

Sure I can work on my range estimation, and have done so (at the time I was shooting 3D competitively), but in the heat of the moment hunting, I suck at judging yardage, plain and simple. I suck @ 3D too, but that' s another story for another time

I have nothing against aluminum, it precise, easy to work with and consistent, but until I can get a bow shooting it @ the same speeds I shoot carbon at now w/ the same draw length and poundage, and it becomes more durable, I’ll stick w/ A/C/Cs. They offer all the advantages of both shaft types with little if any disadvantage from either.

Len in Maryland

Jeff:

While I agree with just about everything you posted, and I' ll emphasize several comments that you made, there is one comment you made where I' ll respectfully disagree/clarify.

Quote:

I have nothing against aluminum, it precise, easy to work with and consistent,...

The " easy to work with" is where I slightly disagree with you. The fact that they cover much less a poundage spectrum and that they don' t recover as quickly off the string is a detrimental factor - when compared to carbon or carbon wrapped arrows. As you stated so eloquently, there are definite advantages and disadvantages of both; and, the ACCs incorporate the best of both. I mention this because " easy to work with" is relative.

I also found the Kinetics to be ' less than desirable' . I recently had a good customer headed for an elk hunt and had come to me at the Hoyt Rep' s recommendation with all new product already ' in hand' . The first thing was that he had the wrong bow, and the second thing was that he had Kinetics. He was amazed that I recommended he only use 1/2 the arrows he had been given. I showed him how I tested the arrows and he couldn' t refute my findings.

I noticed in the beginning you stated:

Quote:

I' m sick of carbon arrows...IC carbons

You know where I' m coming from with this statement.

Shoot straight and enjoy your ACCs.

Cougar Mag

Funny, out of a dozen Easton Carbon Evolution 400' s, 11 will shoot tacks with broadheads. Maybe I got lucky.

I thought about trying the ACCs but never did after 2 guys I know who shoot them have bent some!!! Remember, its still aluminum inside that wrapped carbon.

Arthur P

Jeff, I may have to retract my retraction. Those Terminator Selects you sent were great when I first got them, but one is already showing some wobble at the insert. The other 3 still spin true.

Still think I should b!tchslap you for sending me that ACC though! I knew I didn' t want to know how good those things are.

You know one thing you can do to help yourself out with that yardage estimation stuff? Take the flippin' sights off the bow and shoot instinctive. I' ve hunted with sights less than 5 times in my entire life because I learned early on that sights suck on a hunting bow!

Deleted User

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JeffB

Gosh I missed some comments from last night

Rangeball,

Your experiences mirror mine over the years. You don’t have to baby A/C/C’s by any means, but you can’t treat them like they are a telephone pole either.

Ausie,

Boy do I WISH I was on the Easton staff or something. Then I wouldn’t have to pay so much for them. Even w/ the discount I get at the shop they still are expensive.

Jeff,

Aye, they be the very same ones.

That is a great price on the A/C/Cs: about what I get them for w/ my discount at the shop w/ components. Consider yourself lucky, and take advantage of the situation . And unfortunately I’m not surprised about your experience w/ the T-selects. How long have you had them? And for God’s Sakes man, fletch up what you have and sight those bad boys in!

Len,

I should have elaborated on that point: I meant easy to work with from a construction standpoint: Easy to fletch, get inserts in, etc. I made mention of the wider spine tolerances for carbons (point # 3 I believe ), but although the range is much narrower, at least you know what you are getting beforehand w/ XX: no surprises!

I too was surprised and upset about the KIIs. While most were very good, those 3 were just unacceptable at cut length. BTW, Easton/Beman rates the KII/Matrix at a different straightness tolerance (as per a Easton rep) . .003 over 28”. These particular shafts were cut to nearly exactly that. 9 would likely make the tolerance but 3 were way off. 2 were likely in the .008 range, the other was noticeably worse than those.

Perhaps I’ll grab some Beman pultrudeds again next year. They are not too expensive for experimenting, and are much higher quality shaft. I believe that is what you use, no?

ArthurP,

I’m sorry to hear about that T-Select. I would not expect them to start to crap out so soon. How many times have you shot them appx?

I told you about those A/C/C’s my friend, now you will have to join me among the ranks of the hybrid arrow shaft shooters..C’mon..you know you want some..ALL the cool kids are doing it!

And were it not for my bum back, I’d likely still be shooting instinctively w/ a longbow. However I am cross-dominant. I would have to switch to LH shooting, and my back rebels every time I try, compound or stickbow. I’ve even have a RH Saxon longbow sitting around I tried instinctive and for gap shooting w/ my left eye closed, but I just never felt comfy with that. Believe you me, if my back could take it, I’d be walking the woods with a custom Morrison or Elburg, or some other longbow along with some tapered Norway Pine or Cedar with 5 inch banana-cuts and tipped with 125 grain grizzlys..I do miss it.

Arthur P

I' ve shot each of those arrows about a hundred shots apiece now on Morrell outdoor range bags and McKenzie' s. About another 40 shots each into the sand pile with broadheads. Compound, recurve and longbow. They shoot well out of all and I like having one size arrow that shoots good on all my bows. That saves me a LOT of money!

Right now it' s 2216' s for my sticks and 2315' s for the compound.

That blasted ACC shoots good off all my bows too. I really didn' t want to admit it, but now there is no denying the fact.... I' m screwed. It' s still wood for the selfbows though! There is no way I will commit the heresy of shooting carbon off a selfbow!! LOL

About the Selects though, I really didn' t expect to see any changes so soon either. The trials continue.

Len in Maryland

Jeff:

I figured as much about your comment.

Right-on about what I still shoot. They do, however, have to be checked periodically after shooting into something hard. The fun part is that the point adapters can be readjusted to the centerline of the shaft it is what takes most of the brunt of the impact.

Arthur:

I' ve had ' die-hard' trad shooters fall in love with ACCs. They ' recover' off the string/shelf so much faster than the straight aluminums.