PABowhntr

No, not quite is right. In case you missed it the last part of my post ended with some smiley faces which would indicate humor. My intention was to " fish" a little bit to see if Arthur would bite. The continued debate regarding slow heavy arrows with cut on contact tips and plenty of momentum versus faster, lighter arrrows with either Trocar style tips or expandable blades is an interesting one from my perspective. Though I do not disagree with either " side" of the debate I do tend to find myself falling more into the ICS carbon-expandable group than the aluminum-Magnus/Zwickey side simply because of my personal experience with my own setups.

Given enough KE a well tuned bow with proper shot placement will shoot expandable heads repeatedly through deer regardless of the cutting diameter of the head. I think few will dispute that. The core of the argument seems to lie with issue of marginal hits on areas such as the edge of the shoulder blade or other possible hard parts of the animal' s body. With the gift of common sense even the most devoted speed freak cannot argue that a heavy sharp object should provide better potential for success in such a situation.

However, I find any argument that does not sufficiently recognize the possibility of the effectiveness of the opposing " side" a bit hard to swallow. Now that comment is not necessarily directed towards the study in question as I have yet to read it but was rather directed at both " camps" in their continuing discussion of the issue.

Was my intention a bit more clear now?

Arthur P

Frank, that worm has been dangled in front of my face too often for me to nibble on it any more. Besides, with Dr Ashby' s study right there in black and white, I don' t have to say anything more about it. If people keep an open mind and read the whole thing, they just might learn something. I learned quite a bit from it at the expense of some of my own prejudices.

PABowhntr

Having heard you " say" that Arthur the article now has me curious. When I get a chance later this morning I am going to have to take the time to read it over thoroughly.

Rangeball

One thing I gleaned from the study and hoped to learn more about was the percentage of killing shots jumped WAY up once a certain level of momentum was reached, even when big bone was impacted. I believe the momentum figure was .57 or something like that. One of the tables said a 350 grain arrow would have to be traveling around 367 fps to provide that, which we are closing in on

If you had this much momentum, you could bow kill any beasty walking the face of the earth, apparently. But I' m wondering what the minimum level of momentum to provide this same increase killing shot rate is for whitetail sized game. Seems logical that it would take a tad bit less to zip through a whitetail than say a cape buffalo, with his overlapping ribs and all I am a whitetail and smaller size game hunter, and larger game probably isn' t in my forseeable future, no matter how much I' d like it to be.

If we could determine this, I' d say we could find some common ground in a hurry, cause I have a sneaky feeling we' re there right now. My 375 grain arrow zipping along at 288 is giving me .479 in momentum right now. My 500 grain arrow at 252 gives me .559, probably adequate to face down a blue whale provided proper shot placement and a good broadhead

Rangeball

In case anyone is interested, here' s a listing of some of the broadheads that will be in the new study-

Montec, bone buster, Magnus, eclipse, muzzy, phantom, wensel woodsman, zwickey, stos, ace, grizzly,ribtek, snuffer, steel force, simmons, bloodtrailer, spitfire, vortex, rocket and steel heads.

2droptine

Too bad he couldnt do Rocky Mountain as well.
2blade mechanical should definately be in there.

Rangeball

It might not be too late. All of the listed heads were donated by hunters interested in how they would perform. There' s a thread on tradgang.com that has the address in Australia if anyone wants to send them. Not sure if it' s too late or not, perhaps Arthur knows...

Rangeball

I assume the .57 momentum recommendation is measured at launch, meaning the effective momentum required is actually lower based on how far away the animal is from you.

However, if you wanted to make sure and have .57 all the way out to 35 yards, you can do it with a 500 grain arrow flying at 275 fps. This gives you:

0 yards- .609
10 yards- .597
20 yards- .586
30 yards- .575
35 yards- .57

Looks to be a perfect compromise between flat shooting and high ke and momentum. A good goal to shoot for, no?

No wonder you long arm guys have all the fun Easy to do with most modern 70# compounds drawing 30" and above, a little harder at 29" and a difficult proposition at 28" , unless I' m missing something...

When I get a smooth drawing, cool looking, easy shooting quiet bow that hits this mark at a 28" draw at 70#s, I' m done looking at new bows, until they can do it at 60#s

How far off do you think this is, realistically?

silentassassin

I don' t think we will see it in our lifetime!

Rangeball

I don' t agree with that. My bow is only 23 fps away from doing it now at 70#s with a 28" draw. Look how much speed has jumped up in the past 5 years alone. If designers would grasp this concept and start putting out bows geared towards hunting instead of posting the fastest IBO speed, I' d bet they' d get there quick.