to drop or not to drop?
08-26-2003, 08:32 AM
#11
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: to drop or not to drop?
IME, The people who see a significant increase in accuracy when switching to a drop-away are people who have spine/fletch clearance issues, not rest issues.
On singlecams that yield fairly good nock travel (i.e. straightline type cams, some of the better maxcams like Hoyt’s previous DTI designs, etc) I don’t see drop-aways as a problem (and I have used them on such bows with success).
My point was that I have found that conventional rests work better on singlecams (especially for the bows that are not straight-line types), for the very reasons Rack stated.
I don’t see any significant accuracy advantage w/ a drop-away unless you wish to shoot extreme helical 4” or 5”vanes on a smaller diameter shaft.
On a more practical level, conventional rests are easier to set-up, have fine tuning adjustments you cannot have w/ a drop away, and are much easier to get shooting again in the field should something happen.
As for what the PRO’s use….you’ll notice many of the Trophy Taker sponsored shooters are using the rest in the fixed position w/ a blade launcher…if the drop-way was more accurate, they’d be shooting them that way.
On singlecams that yield fairly good nock travel (i.e. straightline type cams, some of the better maxcams like Hoyt’s previous DTI designs, etc) I don’t see drop-aways as a problem (and I have used them on such bows with success).
My point was that I have found that conventional rests work better on singlecams (especially for the bows that are not straight-line types), for the very reasons Rack stated.
I don’t see any significant accuracy advantage w/ a drop-away unless you wish to shoot extreme helical 4” or 5”vanes on a smaller diameter shaft.
On a more practical level, conventional rests are easier to set-up, have fine tuning adjustments you cannot have w/ a drop away, and are much easier to get shooting again in the field should something happen.
As for what the PRO’s use….you’ll notice many of the Trophy Taker sponsored shooters are using the rest in the fixed position w/ a blade launcher…if the drop-way was more accurate, they’d be shooting them that way.
08-26-2003, 10:59 AM
#13
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: to drop or not to drop?
Rangeball,
Seems to vary from model to model. I have not seen a bunch of ‘em tested but I have seen a few. I would say they are middle of the road from my experience. Not as good as a straightline, better than most of the max-cam copies I’ve seen (and certainly much better than the older pre-max cam styles).
Of course nock travel can be really goofy. You can test a bow that has very good nock travel and make it look not as good, just by pulling from a different part of the string.
As long as you are aware they tend to like a stiff arrow, the PF cam’s are a breeze to tune IME (w/ a Conventional rest, Rack!
), and along with some other reasons (valley & holding characteristics, hardest wall available) that is why they are my fave single-cam design on the market.
Seems to vary from model to model. I have not seen a bunch of ‘em tested but I have seen a few. I would say they are middle of the road from my experience. Not as good as a straightline, better than most of the max-cam copies I’ve seen (and certainly much better than the older pre-max cam styles).
Of course nock travel can be really goofy. You can test a bow that has very good nock travel and make it look not as good, just by pulling from a different part of the string.
As long as you are aware they tend to like a stiff arrow, the PF cam’s are a breeze to tune IME (w/ a Conventional rest, Rack!
), and along with some other reasons (valley & holding characteristics, hardest wall available) that is why they are my fave single-cam design on the market.
08-27-2003, 02:31 AM
#14
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 174
RE: to drop or not to drop?
What do you mean " fine tuning adjustments you cannot have w/ a drop away"
The drop away I am using is independantly micro adjustable.
I never really worry too much about straight and level nock travel because:
1) 2 cam bows don' t have LEVEL nock travel unless shot from the exact center of the string (which most target bows do NOT)
2) Even Mathews didn' t start putting the " striaght line" cams on the target bows (Conquest?) only the shorter hunting bows. Why?
IMNSHO, having a rest touching the arrow through the entire shot, simply gives you the entire shot to move, and upset the arrow.
I think it was PSE that had some SUPER Slow motion video of arrows being shot with a " normal" arrow rest...showing the effects of too much, too little and just right spine (So you want to be a bowhunter video has these as well I think) even the " proper spine" arrow was bouncing on and off the rest.
PERSONALLY, I' ll use a drop away. If you have better luck with a shoot through. You know what YOU should shoot.
The drop away I am using is independantly micro adjustable.
I never really worry too much about straight and level nock travel because:
1) 2 cam bows don' t have LEVEL nock travel unless shot from the exact center of the string (which most target bows do NOT)
2) Even Mathews didn' t start putting the " striaght line" cams on the target bows (Conquest?) only the shorter hunting bows. Why?
IMNSHO, having a rest touching the arrow through the entire shot, simply gives you the entire shot to move, and upset the arrow.
I think it was PSE that had some SUPER Slow motion video of arrows being shot with a " normal" arrow rest...showing the effects of too much, too little and just right spine (So you want to be a bowhunter video has these as well I think) even the " proper spine" arrow was bouncing on and off the rest.
PERSONALLY, I' ll use a drop away. If you have better luck with a shoot through. You know what YOU should shoot.
08-27-2003, 07:34 AM
#16
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,994
RE: to drop or not to drop?
Bob Ragsdale stated that you want your spring set as light as possible, even if it was slightly depressed at rest, so that it just comes up at full draw, to help ensure it is placing as little influence on the arrow as possible...
08-27-2003, 10:07 AM
#19
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CT, USA
Posts: 3,058
RE: to drop or not to drop?
For those who have not been able to infer what I’m getting at, notice how some have said on this thread that they drop away has to stay up a bit longer to get them to shoot/tune correctly….
Translation: YOUR ARROW NEEDS SOME GUIDANCE.
It NEEDS stabilization, which is EXACTLY what the spring tension on a conventional rest does. It provides some initial stabilization and then is pushed out of the way as the arrow passes.
A drop away that falls instantly is doing nothing to help your arrow. For those with fletching clearance problems this can be a good thing. However if your arrow spine or tune is not perfect, or pull out of alignment, you’ve solved one minor problem only to create a few more. What happens with a drop-away if you torque the string in some way? The arrow keeps on going the wrong way because there is nothing there to compensate for the whipping oscillation of the bowstring. If I make that same mistake w/ a conventional rest the arrow will have at the least a pair of prongs or spring steel launcher working at the front of the shaft trying to help it get back on the right track. Like a perfect bullet-hole, a drop away works very well if you do your part, but the arrow acts like a knuckleball if you make a mistake.
I prefer being able to fine-tune the guidance (i.e. spring tension) to the particular arrow to give me the most forgiving set-up.
I have no problem if someone shoots a drop-away, I’m not ANTI-dropaway or some kind of conventional rest Nazi: I just don’t see the superiority other than from wanting to shoot a massive helical. I find them more cumbersome to tune and set-up, especially when something goes wrong (like the cable the rope is attached to stretches), or you bump the rest in the field, or something comes loose. I find them more finicky about arrow spine because you cannot fine tune the guidance using spring tension (well sometimes you can.by lengthening how long they stay up, but it’s a much more time consuming and difficult process then loosening and turning a screw on a conventional rest).
“Been there, done that” as the saying goes.
Translation: YOUR ARROW NEEDS SOME GUIDANCE.
It NEEDS stabilization, which is EXACTLY what the spring tension on a conventional rest does. It provides some initial stabilization and then is pushed out of the way as the arrow passes.
A drop away that falls instantly is doing nothing to help your arrow. For those with fletching clearance problems this can be a good thing. However if your arrow spine or tune is not perfect, or pull out of alignment, you’ve solved one minor problem only to create a few more. What happens with a drop-away if you torque the string in some way? The arrow keeps on going the wrong way because there is nothing there to compensate for the whipping oscillation of the bowstring. If I make that same mistake w/ a conventional rest the arrow will have at the least a pair of prongs or spring steel launcher working at the front of the shaft trying to help it get back on the right track. Like a perfect bullet-hole, a drop away works very well if you do your part, but the arrow acts like a knuckleball if you make a mistake.
I prefer being able to fine-tune the guidance (i.e. spring tension) to the particular arrow to give me the most forgiving set-up.
I have no problem if someone shoots a drop-away, I’m not ANTI-dropaway or some kind of conventional rest Nazi: I just don’t see the superiority other than from wanting to shoot a massive helical. I find them more cumbersome to tune and set-up, especially when something goes wrong (like the cable the rope is attached to stretches), or you bump the rest in the field, or something comes loose. I find them more finicky about arrow spine because you cannot fine tune the guidance using spring tension (well sometimes you can.by lengthening how long they stay up, but it’s a much more time consuming and difficult process then loosening and turning a screw on a conventional rest).
“Been there, done that” as the saying goes.
08-27-2003, 10:42 AM
#20
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oakland City Indiana USA
Posts: 524
RE: to drop or not to drop?
I won' t get into the debate but I have had accuracy as good with each style as the other.
I do however want to share a way I have been minimizing the extra tension that will go to your cable or cables if you time the dropaways to stay up longer. Here is a pic of a governor spring for a Briggs small engine (part #260695) installed in the lanyard of a trophy taker. It isn' t a great shot but you should get the picture. I have since changed the position of the spring to be very close to the slide, to minimize possible vane contact. The spring starts to uncoil some until the rest is full up and then it takes the extra tension that would transfer to the cables. I prefer my timing to be longer than most.
If changing the timing of your dropaway (up longer) brings your point of impact up, I would say your rest is definitly falling too early. It just makes sense to me. Any thoughts on that????
-Chief
I do however want to share a way I have been minimizing the extra tension that will go to your cable or cables if you time the dropaways to stay up longer. Here is a pic of a governor spring for a Briggs small engine (part #260695) installed in the lanyard of a trophy taker. It isn' t a great shot but you should get the picture. I have since changed the position of the spring to be very close to the slide, to minimize possible vane contact. The spring starts to uncoil some until the rest is full up and then it takes the extra tension that would transfer to the cables. I prefer my timing to be longer than most.
If changing the timing of your dropaway (up longer) brings your point of impact up, I would say your rest is definitly falling too early. It just makes sense to me. Any thoughts on that????
-Chief