The tuning trilogy!
08-20-2003, 06:21 AM
#71
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: CWD Central, WI.
Posts: 2,062
RE: The tuning trilogy!
Fact: The manufacturer states an exceptable tolerence their shafts will fall into.
Fact: They use this as a selling point.
Fact: If the shaft don' t meet their standards, it is defective.
We as consumers have the right right to return defective merchandise.
Fact: They use this as a selling point.
Fact: If the shaft don' t meet their standards, it is defective.
We as consumers have the right right to return defective merchandise.
08-20-2003, 07:27 AM
#72
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 7,571
RE: The tuning trilogy!
If it is on the point end, pressing too hard or inconsistent, while cutting the arrow on the cut-off saw, could give you a bad cut. This is, however, usually seen by the point insert not being flush with the cut around the circumference of the shaft.
08-20-2003, 07:32 AM
#73
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: The tuning trilogy!
There is also another option consumers have, nub. When we know that a sizeable number of carbons we buy will not be what they' re represented to be, we have the option to buy something else. I could shoot aluminum the rest of my life and be happy as a clam. Unless the quality starts slipping.
If that happens, I' ll be back to clipping wild rose and salt cedar shoots and making arrows out of them, just like I was doing 40 years ago.
If that happens, I' ll be back to clipping wild rose and salt cedar shoots and making arrows out of them, just like I was doing 40 years ago.
08-20-2003, 07:46 AM
#74
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: The tuning trilogy!
Arthur-
I was just wondering how you positioned your supports for measuring runout. Does this mean you had a support 4" from the tip end? Where was the other end positioned?
I think I remember calling Easton on this a few years ago to get the exact procedure on how they measure their runout. Don' t they use a set span of 28" (same as spine measurements) with the shaft centered over the supports for their straightness tests?
The tips were held constant at 4" from the near side support...
I think I remember calling Easton on this a few years ago to get the exact procedure on how they measure their runout. Don' t they use a set span of 28" (same as spine measurements) with the shaft centered over the supports for their straightness tests?
08-20-2003, 08:23 AM
#75
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: The tuning trilogy!
Depending on the bow shop, many shops DO MAKE PRODUCTS. Most make up arrows from shaft stock, some also make strings, and some also make cable/harness systems.
If I were to have a set of arrows made at a shop and I discovered that several of the shafts were way out of advertised tolerance and/or some were defective, and/or some of the fletch/vane were defective, and/or the fletch/vanes started falling off because the adhesive used turned out to be a bad batch; because of what has been said, I am to believe and accept that the pro shop has no accountability and therefore no obligation to make good…… However, they (shop) do have the right to keep my money and tell me to resolve my problems with only the manufacturers of the products/materials that the shop used? ……That is bad business, and partly why I have not patronized bowshops for quite awhile, other than to purchase a part or a small item.
I keep hearing; " It has always been, therefore it is righteous and it will always be!" Bull! Just because something has always been……when in fact it has not, does not mean that it is acceptable. If I were to patronize a shop and demand that I get my bang for my buck, but the dealer said that I will take what I am given and like it, or that the shop will not stand behind the product they sell, I would be on my way, and many of the bowhunters that I know would go with me.
If it truly is a FACT that (paraphrased) " MOST hunting customers could give a rat about straightness tolerances," and that statement is universal, that would mean that ethics of MOSTof bowhunters and the sport has greatly degraded. In addition, that statement should be taken by MOST bowhunters as a slap in the face.
This entire dealer whining and passing the buck has reminded my why I eventually acquired all the equipment necessary; and for a very long time I have refurbished and repaired my own equipment and have made my own arrows.
Locally, a small computer shop opened about 4 years ago. They sell products that they do not manufacturer. However, they personally exceed the factory warranty and give a 3-year warranty on all the products they sell and on all the work they do. If I purchase any product from them, and the product is defective or becomes defective, I take the item back to the shop. They (shop) make good and THEY send the product back to the factory for replacement or reimbursement.
Their business has rapidly grown and their reputation is well known. Today I will be meeting a brother who will be picking up his repaired computer from the shop; a computer he did not purchase from the shop. He lives 89 miles away and had heard of the shop' s reputation and good business practices.
If I were to have a set of arrows made at a shop and I discovered that several of the shafts were way out of advertised tolerance and/or some were defective, and/or some of the fletch/vane were defective, and/or the fletch/vanes started falling off because the adhesive used turned out to be a bad batch; because of what has been said, I am to believe and accept that the pro shop has no accountability and therefore no obligation to make good…… However, they (shop) do have the right to keep my money and tell me to resolve my problems with only the manufacturers of the products/materials that the shop used? ……That is bad business, and partly why I have not patronized bowshops for quite awhile, other than to purchase a part or a small item.
I keep hearing; " It has always been, therefore it is righteous and it will always be!" Bull! Just because something has always been……when in fact it has not, does not mean that it is acceptable. If I were to patronize a shop and demand that I get my bang for my buck, but the dealer said that I will take what I am given and like it, or that the shop will not stand behind the product they sell, I would be on my way, and many of the bowhunters that I know would go with me.
If it truly is a FACT that (paraphrased) " MOST hunting customers could give a rat about straightness tolerances," and that statement is universal, that would mean that ethics of MOSTof bowhunters and the sport has greatly degraded. In addition, that statement should be taken by MOST bowhunters as a slap in the face.
This entire dealer whining and passing the buck has reminded my why I eventually acquired all the equipment necessary; and for a very long time I have refurbished and repaired my own equipment and have made my own arrows.
Locally, a small computer shop opened about 4 years ago. They sell products that they do not manufacturer. However, they personally exceed the factory warranty and give a 3-year warranty on all the products they sell and on all the work they do. If I purchase any product from them, and the product is defective or becomes defective, I take the item back to the shop. They (shop) make good and THEY send the product back to the factory for replacement or reimbursement.
Their business has rapidly grown and their reputation is well known. Today I will be meeting a brother who will be picking up his repaired computer from the shop; a computer he did not purchase from the shop. He lives 89 miles away and had heard of the shop' s reputation and good business practices.
08-20-2003, 08:35 AM
#76
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: The tuning trilogy!
Black Frog, you are correct that Easton, all arrow manufacturers actually, uses a specific distance between supports. Then they check runout in the center of the shaft. Problem is, if you' re checking a 33" long shaft across supports that are 28" apart, then you' ve got a couple of inches of each end of the shaft that are not being checked at all.
So, that method doesn' t really tell you what' s going on with the ends of the shaft. My supports were closer together than 28" , supporting the shaft, with the tip sticking out 4" past the support so I could measure concentricity of the tip to the rest of the shaft. I could' ve gone 3" . I could' ve gone 6" . I just settled on 4" because that' s kinda where I wound up with my setup.
So, that method doesn' t really tell you what' s going on with the ends of the shaft. My supports were closer together than 28" , supporting the shaft, with the tip sticking out 4" past the support so I could measure concentricity of the tip to the rest of the shaft. I could' ve gone 3" . I could' ve gone 6" . I just settled on 4" because that' s kinda where I wound up with my setup.
08-20-2003, 08:40 AM
#78
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: The tuning trilogy!
If it truly is a FACT that (paraphrased) " MOST hunting customers could give a rat about straightness tolerances," and that statement is universal, that would mean that ethics of MOSTof bowhunters and the sport has greatly degraded. In addition, that statement should be taken by MOST bowhunters as a slap in the face.
It' s no slap in the face- it is the reality that some don' t care enough about the sport to give it the respect it deserves.
08-20-2003, 08:46 AM
#79
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Kenosha, Wi USA
Posts: 499
RE: The tuning trilogy!
Arthur-
But if you' re checking runout at the ends, that will be VERY dependent on where you put your supports in the center. If the supports are only 10" apart for a 30" shaft the ends will be showing much more runout than if your supports are 28" apart for a 30" shaft.
Need to have some sort of standard convention for measuring runout on the ends, just like there is a standard for measuring runout in the center. Something like: " supports 4" in from each end, regardless of shaft length" . ?
Measuring the spine and center runout at a 28" span makes the overhang on each side past the 28" irrelevant. The shaft could be 28.25" or 32" and it should be the same measurement for that given shaft. But for the runout at the ends, then the overhang past the center supports becomes critical. Agreed?
But if you' re checking runout at the ends, that will be VERY dependent on where you put your supports in the center. If the supports are only 10" apart for a 30" shaft the ends will be showing much more runout than if your supports are 28" apart for a 30" shaft.
Need to have some sort of standard convention for measuring runout on the ends, just like there is a standard for measuring runout in the center. Something like: " supports 4" in from each end, regardless of shaft length" . ?
Measuring the spine and center runout at a 28" span makes the overhang on each side past the 28" irrelevant. The shaft could be 28.25" or 32" and it should be the same measurement for that given shaft. But for the runout at the ends, then the overhang past the center supports becomes critical. Agreed?
08-20-2003, 09:02 AM
#80
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: The tuning trilogy!
Black Frog, I made a very good living as a machinist and quality control inspector in the aerospace industry before I retired. So, I have the background and experience behind me to know how to check what I want to find out.
What I am checking is not kosher according to what the manufacturers supposedly guarantee, but it is critical to someone that' s wanting to get a broadhead to spin true. If the insert end of the arrow doesn' t spin true, the broadhead never will.
Same thing applies to the nock end. If the nock is offcenter from the shaft, then the string will power the arrow off to the side instead of down the center. If the nock is misaligned horizontally to the rest, the arrow will be forced sideways by the string. If the nock is misaligned vertically, it will be forced off either up or down.
You' re right that placement of the support will affect the readings. If I' d gone to 2" overhang instead of 4" , the runout would likely have been less. If I' d gone 6" , the runout would likely have been more. 4" was just an arbitrary decision on my part.
What I am checking is not kosher according to what the manufacturers supposedly guarantee, but it is critical to someone that' s wanting to get a broadhead to spin true. If the insert end of the arrow doesn' t spin true, the broadhead never will.
Same thing applies to the nock end. If the nock is offcenter from the shaft, then the string will power the arrow off to the side instead of down the center. If the nock is misaligned horizontally to the rest, the arrow will be forced sideways by the string. If the nock is misaligned vertically, it will be forced off either up or down.
You' re right that placement of the support will affect the readings. If I' d gone to 2" overhang instead of 4" , the runout would likely have been less. If I' d gone 6" , the runout would likely have been more. 4" was just an arbitrary decision on my part.