silentassassin

You' re right, I must not have paid attention, because I have no idea what a " taking" course is. However, I am familiar with taking a course.

You just said dealers (i.e. Len) were an accomplice to the " crooks" because he sells a product that his customers buy willingly.

Again, you said it chief not me. If that' s not what you meant then try writing it again after a taking course in writing.[&:]

Me thinks you are all mouth and no b@!!$!

Shucks, I gave all that away by pointing out that you were making an innappropriate dig at Len, because you have an unhappy life and you want everyone else to be as unhappy as you are

Oh, I got the point. The point is that you' re an *******

For those of us with reasonable intelligence, it was not difficult to grasp.

JeffB

Good discussion here.

A couple of things I’d like to add and/or elaborate upon...

As Len has made mention of, the push in nocks for carbons are bad news. They are particularly bad for Carbon Express and Beman because they have the smallest inside diameters of the Big Three manufacturers. Goldtips are not as bad because they are sized just a touch bigger (.246 vs. .243 for CX, and .244 for Bemans). If you remember, Carbon Express originally came with Bohnings Signature nock. These were HORRENDOUS because they were a shade too big, and people were cracking the shafts left and right just putting the nocks in. You can hear ‘em crack when you do it. Soon after CX designed their own smaller diameter nock. Easton Supernocks are just as bad because they have a small tab that increases the diameter slightly on them so they will stay secure and not become loose. With the generally poor tolerances of all carbon shafts, which can vary in inside diameter, it made for some really tight fits (causing cracking) or it was not tight enough and eventually you’d shoot your arrow, and your nock was still attached to the string. Bemans were especially bad for this in the beginning though not as bad in recent days.

This is why I ALWAYS stress that folks use unibushings. Not only do they protect from nock end hits, they never are too large in diameter to where they will crack a shaft installing them. In our shop we do a lot of business w/ Carbon Express and we prefer the Redline 410/360 uni’s as they seem to fit a little more snug, AND they are twice as long as an ACC bushing, providing further reinforcement on the fairly brittle nock ends of CX shafts (CX’s are the least structurally sound I’ve found for nock end hits). The Bemans are tougher to work with because the Redline bushings and the 3-60 bushings are a tad too small, so you usually want to install using a slow set glue or epoxy, and spin test them like you would an insert. The ACC and Redline bushings are way too loose in Goldtip shafts, but luckily Goldtip makes their own uni specifically for their shafts (which unfortunately is too tight in the Bemans)

Installing uni’s is the best investment you can make for your arrows longevity. You won’t crack any installing nocks, and they will take some serious abuse from nock end hits. It’s about another 12 to 14 bucks for a dozen bushings and a dozen G-nocks, but worth every darn penny (plus the .098 G-nock is just a better nock for fit on most center servings these days: super nocks and bohnings are way too tight on most strings). I won’t shoot without them.

I have had some arrows go out while shooting them. Beman ICSH used to be bad for this. I’ve had several arrows in some older dozens that would shoot great for a couple of weeks, and then after shooting them fine, just one time I’d walk down to the target, pull ‘em, and they would go haywire after that. And of course I’ve had plenty that while in the target they would take a glancing blow from another, and then would not shoot well after that despite no apparent damage.

I’ve been saying it for a long time, but in the vast majority of cases, you get what you pay for when you skimp on arrows. Cheap carbons suck. I see guys who say they shoot great, but I’ve watched many of these guys shoot, and while I’m no Dave Cousins, the arrows are the least of their worries. Baseball to softball sized groups w/ mech broadheads out to 25 or 30 yards are not a good indicator of shafting quality. Quarter sized groups are. The problem is compounded when you attach a conventional broadhead, no-one has made sure the inserts are in straight, and you have virtually no fletch control (straight fletch low profile vanes, which is the way a lot of shops fletch or buy from distributors ‘cos it’s easier and saves time). However if you A: Purchase some good quality shafting. B: learn how to build arrows properly, C: tune your shooting system (including yourself), and D: insure you have a good amount of control from the fletches , you can get moderate to smaller profile fixed blade heads to fly well. The problem I see is guys buying cheap arrows that are poorly built. They just screw on a thunderhead 125, skewer their outside air conditioning unit then go buy mechs or go back to aluminums..well…duh! Of course you are not going to get good broadhead flight with poorly made shafts, a bad fletch job, and a big broadhead...

While finding the high spine point and fletching your cock feather on all arrows is the best way to do things, you can often make a few seemingly unacceptable shafts pull into your group simply by rotating the nocks. This works very well for those shooting a drop-away or WB because you can minutely adjust the nocks 1/16” (and sometimes this all you need) and not worry about it. On prong style rests you just rotate to the next fletch, and hope for the best. But oftentimes this little trick can pull a “bad arrow” that is out by 6” or so back into your group. I recently had to do this with some Blackhawk ACC copies (so-so arrows in my experience). 3 of the half dozen arrows grouped, 3 were out anywhere from 3 to 7” @ 20 yards. I rotated the nock on each one to a different vane and managed to pull them all into a decent group. One would still consistently fly right 1”. But a 2” group is much better than an 8” one.

I should mention though I’ve been shooting some recently manufactured Goldtip XT shafts and have been thoroughly impressed with them for a mid-range price arrow shafting. Goldtip has definitely upped the Quality Control, as these XT’s shoot very (all of them, after tweaking the nocks) even at longer ranges. I plan to experiment further with them in the future, after basically giving up on them after getting a few horrid dozens in recent years. I will certainly post my findings.

bigcountry

I bought a doz arrows at a proshop in my area last fall. They were assembled by the proshop owners kids I think. Beman ICS. Well, I was having trouble tuning these for broadheads. So I go to the proshop and ask for advise to spin test. As I have never had that much trouble with aluminums. As usual, I do get the assitance needed. I play dumb around this guy. This seems to get the best results on advise. If you dare act like you know something, he gets very arrogant. The owner spin tests with the broadheads, and guess what, they wobbled something horrible. About 9 out of 12. I never told him where I got the arrows. He then tells me I assembled them wrong and the inserts were out of line. I then brake the silence and tell him they were assembled at his shop. He assumed I got them at the local mass merchant. He then said it was just the yield of the arrow and thats what you get. And suggested I send back to the vendor. Called Beman, they said since they didn' t assemble the inserts or the vanes, it can' t be thier issue.

Figures

c903

And, there you go! " bigcountry' s" experience is the moral of the story.

At what point is the dealer exempt from having any responsibility for certain products he or she is stocking and selling when the dealer is aware that a he or she is selling you a particular product that has a higher than normal rate of failure or flaws? I am not talking about all products, typical factory warranty issues, or weeks later. I am talking about; before the product leaves the shop or the defect is detected within a few days.

If the dealer knows that a percentage of a particular shaft/type does have a higher than normal rate of failure/flaw, why is it considered impractical and of undue expectation to require the dealer to assure that you are receiving (certain) goods that meet the standards as claimed and are not already flawed, before you hand your money over?

It is easy and a " cop out" to say that the manufacturer will make good. First, why should the customer be the one that has to jump through hoops? Second, manufacturers do not always make good as easy -if ever, as is claimed; especially when the dealer (shop) has utilized the raw product to create and sell a fabricated product?

In " big country' s" case, the shop (apparently) used defective raw materials to fabricate " big country' s" shafts, yet does not feel the shop should make good? That is one big wagon of horse crap!

The sad part is; such attitudes and customer service (rip-offs) is not that uncommon with many of the small and privately owned bow-shops I have patronized in my time. That is why I do most of my bow biz via catalogues and, now, the Internet. With most of the mail-order businesses, I can usually return wrong or defective goods with no problem…..at the business' expense.

AKDoug

Or they actually were assembled poorly.

Len in Maryland

BC: Was most of the wobble at the nock end or the point end? Most of the problems we' re seeing are at the nock end. The Dealer has nothing to do with this end of the arrow since they come already assembled with the nocks. If it is on the point end, pressing too hard or inconsistent, while cutting the arrow on the cut-off saw, could give you a bad cut. This is, however, usually seen by the point insert not being flush with the cut around the circumference of the shaft. Beman also has an abnormally long point insert which will moreso assure concentricity to the shaft.

I have my daughter doing arrows for me. Of all my arrow builders, she is said to be one of the best by the others. After all, she' s grown up around the shop.

Ps JeffB: Great post.

Arthur P

Len, you got my curiosity up so I grabbed a selection of arrows at random out of my arrow bucket. 4 cedars, 4 carbons (Gold Tip Hunters) and 4 aluminums (Gamegetter II, 2315) and measured runout on the tip ends. I figured it was only fair to compare non-premium aluminum to non-premium carbon. Didn' t have any bare shafts and didn' t feel like stripping any off and refletching right now, so I did not check the nock ends. The measurement was taken just behind the shoulder of the inserts on the carbons and aluminums, right behind the back of point on the cedars. The tips were held constant at 4" from the near side support.

Results: The worst cedar was straight within +/- .003, or .006 TIR. On the aluminums, the needle hardly quivered on any of them, less than +/- .001, or less than .002 TIR. The carbons ran from +/- .004 to .008, or .008 to .016 TIR, avg. .011 TIR. Remember that these are full length shafts that I use for arrows, untrimmed.

Now I' m going to be forced by curiosity to strip the fletchings off some of the carbons and check that nock end.

c903

The point was that, under certain circumstances a dealer has an indisputable obligation to assure that customers do not pay for and receive defective goods. Shafts definitely fall into said category.

Shafts are not sealed and are normally individually accessible for a dealer to inspect, especially when the shop is making up an order. The obligation for the shop to inspect for defects is increased fourfold when it is known that a certain brand or type has a reputation for high flaw ratio.

Who cares what end of the shaft has the flaw and who is responsible for " the end?" I would not! I would only care that the shop sold me a bunch of arrows of which some were beyond the acceptable tolerances, or has defects. I would want my money back because the dealer has the obligation to assure I do not receive defective shafts since it is possible to do so.

If I was shop owner, and I knew that certain shafts had a reputation of having a high flaw rate, I would want to make sure that I did not sell defective arrows, not just because it is smart business, but because they might cause grave injury, and I sold the shafts.

Pinwheel 12

First, dealers do NOT make the product. Like all things, no matter what product you purchase, there will be a certain percentage of " cheese" , no manufacturer is dead nuts perfect, anywhere. In arrows and shafts, this usually ends up being anywhere from one or two out of a dozen on the straightest .001 shafts, to as many as 4 or 5 on the lesser shafts/arrows.

Fact---MOST of my hunting customers could give a rat about straightness tolerances. Most are looking for an " inexpensive" hunting arrow. Thus most buy the " lesser" straightness tolerance arrows, .006 or so, due to price more than anything else. It is up to each individual to decide for themselves what he/she wants to shoot, we dealers can only give our opinions of what we feel is best. Tournament shooters and serious hunters go for a bit better shaft/arrow, granted---these guys can choose .001 tolerance shafts from practically any company, even " selects" that are hand chosen and bundled in dozens with even tighter tolerances. Those huge conglomerate arrow companies that have their stuff built in china now and only cater to those mega-stores who sell 5 bllion shafts/arrows per year are certainly not concerned about this, they only care about the dollars they bring in, so there is really little we dealers can do except maybe offer alternative products which we feel will do a better job to those who feel they want to shoot the better arrows. If everyone starts falling into line here, not only will there be true " Pro-shops" continuing on in the future, but maybe the comglomerates will wake up and find that there is much more to this industry than simply how many million units you can sell the fastest. (megastores) I look at it this way---if the true Pro-shops fall, and you are only left with the larger megastores, WHO is going to work on equipment for one, and WHO is going to give two cents about any quality issues then? Answer---NO-ONE.[] Unfortuntely there are currently major archery-industry companies trying to force us " normal" dealers right out of the industry by giving substantial " breaks" to the megastores. There are far less Pro shops today than there were 5 years ago, and sadly this trend will continue until we squash the beast that has become the Pro-shops enemy.


Another point of contention--

A .001 arrow is a .001 arrow, doesn' t matter if it' s aluminum, carbon, wood, glass, whatever. The alternating factor is what the arrow is made of, and the way it is built---aluminum bends easily, so a .001 arrow that takes a good schmuck or hits a target at an angle will then quickly become .040. A pultruded carbon arrow with unidirectional fibers built with a lesser process will of course lose it' s spine quicker than an arrow made of biased-wrapped construction and newer, better manufacturing processes. Technology moves forward, and I have a hard time belieiving that anyone truly believes that todays' arrow designs are weaker or give out quicker than those of yesteryear, if they do I feel they have been asleep for a dozen years or so, hehe. Wood worked fine, fiberglass worked better, aluminum worked better, pultruded shafts worked better. Biased-wrapped carbon works better still also.

More later. Pinwheel 12

Arthur P

Could mostly go along with you until you went there, Pinwheel. With that, I' m in flat disagreement. Aluminum is still top dog. Yeah, it bends but I' ve got an arrow straightener! Carbons (the ones I can afford) come from the factory bent and ain' t nuthin' I can do to fix ' em.

Maybe I can do carbons like I do wood.... Since they' re bonded with thermoset resin maybe I can sit by the ol' campfire and straighten them with heat.