8PT

When a manufacturer advertises +/-.003" straightness, does that mean a shaft when checked with a dial indicator could read .006" T.I.R or .006 difference between the high and low points or should it be within .003" total difference?

Arthur P

+/- .003 means .006 TIR.

8PT

Thats what I thought Arthur P just confirming. Hey Len, I see you peeking. I don' t think I answered about the method I use for finding the stiff/weak side of an arrow shaft. I am not too good at explaining things in writing but I will try. What I do is take 3 small sealed ball bearings with an inside bore diameter just slightly larger than the diameter of the shaft (where I originally read it the suggested using the bearings from a skateboard wheel). Remove the seals from both sides and flush ot the stiff grease that is usually packed in there so the bearings can rotate as freely as possible.

I then run the arrow shaft thru all 3 bearings. With the three bearings on the shaft, I support the two outer bearings on small blocks of wood(about the size of children' s play blocks) with a " V" cut on each one to keep the bearings in place. Then press down on the center bearing to put a considerable flex in the shaft. If you then rotate the shaft from the end slowly, you can feel the stiff point as it rolls around. There will actually feel to be 2 stiff side 180 deg. apart and 2 weaker sides. With careful feel you can find the actual stiffest and weakest sides. I then mark the most stiff point with whiteout etc. and that is where I align my cock fletch. I hope this explains enough to get the idea. If not just say so and I will try again or try to figure out how to make a drawing.

I know this is not as accurate as a spine tester but works fairly well for my amature use. I think I paid $10-$12 for three bearings at the supply house. I really noticed a difference in grouping when I started doing this.

c903

Silent:

Try reading again…. after a taking course in reading comprehension. You have the habit of taking excerpts out of context to fit your cause. Nobody called Len, or anyone, a crook; nor inferred such. Me thinks you are more mouth than brains. You keep confirming what I have long suspected, that your experience and knowledge in the area of bowhunting/archery is more role-playing than actual. You just want to hang with crowd.

In addition, I have been around the game long enough to know that arrows are not 100% perfect. The actual point I was making obviously flew high over your head. I also know what the term " grade" means vs. cost and expectations. Once more, understanding simple language appears to have evaded you.

Understanding why a consumer has the right to reasonable expectations when you pay for something, should not be difficult for any adult of average intelligence to grasp.

Len in Maryland

8PT: Thanks for the explanation. I totally understand what you' re doing. I do wonder whether or not the test actually reflects spine or arc. Not to worry, because I also wonder the same about the way manufacturers do their testing. I' m sure, however, that their test methods are quite a bit more sophisticated. Anyway, I think I' ll check out your process.

Now on to the matter at hand. I try diligently to educate/assist my customers in their arrow selection, tuning and advanced evaluation. I provide spin testers at 3 places in my shop for customers to test their arrows whenever they want. I will take time to show any customer how to use the spin testers for both the base arrow and with the broadhead attached.

I explain to my customers about the straightness issue and that the manufacturers of wrapped carbon arrows are not controlling batches of production very well. I explain that this is beyond my control; but, that I want them hunting with the best equipment possible. When we are asked to tune any bow, we always ask for several arrows and spin test them in front of the customer. When they see this, they almost always want to test the rest of their arrows. Even if they didn' t buy their arrows from me, I always suggest that they use our testers.

With 20,000+ arrow sales a year, it would be ridiculous for us to do any selective analysis. Besides not having the time, my customers wouldn' t want to pay for that extra service. We are in a very competitive environment as it is. Can you imagine where we would be if we tried to do what some have suggested? Would you like to be the one left with arrows that have been repeatedly ' selected' by other archers? []

No, I won' t let customers ' select' their arrows.[:-] If anyone has a problem with what they deem ' out of spec' , I strongly suggest that they personally send the ' bad' arrows back to the manufacturers. Does your PRO Shop put spin testers out for you to use? Does your PRO Shop even tell you about this situation. Does your PRO Shop check your arrows before they try to tune your bow? If the manufacturers started receiving shipments of arrows back from volumes of customers, maybe then their quality control will get better. I can' t change the system alone and I won' t be the dupe of ridicule by those who ' think' they can do better.

I figured I' d bring some of my findings to several forums so that others in the world could understand this problem. It was greeted with thanks on the other forums. Here, while I see that many appreciate the advice, we have a few who you just can' t please. I was always taught not to kill the messenger. It' s evident that some here may have trouble with understanding this issue. We wonder why a lot of people don' t post and why a lot of good people leave forums. Don' t worry, I can take the heat; but, it makes one wonder why they should even try to get an educational message across. [:' (]

Thank you to those that understand the situation and are positive in their posts. To the others, ?????? No, I' m not mad, just confused by your attitude.

c903

If the rejected arrows are defective or outside the tolerances claimed, why would those arrows remain in stock for consumers to buy? Plays like the rejected lumber that remains in the stack at the lumber yards. The uninformed will buy a percentage of the rejected lumber.

Len; whether it be you or any dealer, when you know that certain products are not meeting the quality as advertised and as believed by the consumer, yet you sell the product to the public and are taking their money, your excuse that you cannot and should not be held responsible is crap.

You sell a product that you know could be defective, yet you say that your are out of the circle of responsibility, and that the customer -who gave YOU their money, should deal with the manufacturer only. Even to the point of the customer having to foot the expense of sending the item back? I do not care if you sell 200,000 arrows a year, that does not give you any immunity for selling products that you know might be defective or violates the " truth in advertising" ethics.

As for the customers having a better chance of improving quality control by their sending items back, that is insane. Whom do the customers buy the products from? Would it not have more impact if dealers/retailers refused to stock the product because they know the product lacks reasonable quality control? Or, is it more profit-productive to sell the junk, knowing that the odds are that a high percentage of customers will not know or will not send the product back to the manufacturer. Sort of a win-win situation for the manufacturers and the dealers….isn' t it?

dsheally

I float my aluminum arrows to find the stiff side. I think this helps but is not a
magical answer. I still find several shafts out of a dozen that don' t group well.
I did this 2 nights ago and my wife said i was crazy, floating my new shafts.
I told her I was tuning my arrows to make each one as consistant as I could.
I got to shoot 3 of those arrows tonight. At 20 yards all 3 were touching each
other. Now, if the other 9 will do this I' ll be happy.

dsheally

Neither Len nor any Pro Shop can control the quality of arrows shafts sent from
the factory. I have been bowhunting for 24 years and it' s just a fact of life that
when tuning arrows that some of those dozen arrows you buy are not good.
Let' s not put the blame on Pro Shop' s for something they can' t control.

Arthur P

Well, I know for sure if Len didn' t sell carbon arrows, then his customers would just go on down the road to Billy Bob' s Tune Ups, Beer Store, Bait House and Archery Supply and get the things there. I disagree with Len on two key points, but I' m not pointing fingers at him for selling this stuff.

I do not agree that we should simply accept that the arrows we buy will only yield a small percentage of useable arrows. If I knew that 3/4 of the tires I buy would blow out before I left the shop, I wouldn' t buy three complete sets to get one set that worked!

Nor do I agree that the customer should be left to his own devices when he' s got an arrow that' s obviously bad. I would expect the warranty on those tires I was talking about to be honored by the dealer. I would not be willing to send them back to the factory myself, to get ' lost in transit' or have them answer back saying the damage was road hazard. I know why dealers would rather you try to deal direct with the manufacturer, because they' d be snowed under with returns. A few would be genuinely bad arrows but most would be good arrows subjected to operator error.

My solution is that I' m not buying any more carbon arrows for the foreseeable future. Y' all let me know if they ever get half as good as aluminum arrows.

Straightarrow

I' m wondering how long it takes to test a dozen arrows for straightness. Are several points checked?

By the way, when no one knows of a single dealer in the country that allows arrow selection or return of defective arrows through the dealer, then you shouldn' t blame a dealer on the policy. Dealers have to generally follow what everyone else does, or go out of business for lack of competitiveness. I would suggest calling the manufacturer and ask for the procedure for returning defective arrows. In some industries, all warranty returns are direct to the manufacturer. If this is the case in the arrow business, and we don' t like it, then complaining to the manufacturer is the best method of changing it.