Straight/Level Nock travel
07-20-2003, 09:51 PM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Straight/Level Nock travel
If it were NOT an issue, why was the " Straightline Cam" designed? If it were NOT a critical, or at least desired criteria, why is it such a concerning topic? The only way to really understand and evaluate it is to do a comparative study in several modes.
1. Throw a 2 cam bow out of synch and it will display a nock travel problem. Fix the problem and it will perform better. Find the ' sweet spot' , which may NOT be ' absolute' , and it may perform better for the given archer/shooter. With the proper equipment, any bow can be ' documented' to enable the archer/shooter to set that bow up properly after a new string/cables are installed
2. Compare the various single cam bows. Look especially at the earlier models and compare them to the later, more efficient/better shooting models. You will see a tremendous variation. Compare them to a well shooting 2 cam and you will begin to understand why there is a desire to achieve ' straight AND level' nock travel.
The tournament archer/shooter will not notice the difference as much. It is when the hunter' s broadhead is attached that the differences become more critical. Efficiency and less critical spine selection are two other notable benefits of S&L nock travel.
You' re absolutely right, PW12, I also " just don' t feel the need to get slammed by those who are loyal to certain brands." [:' (]
1. Throw a 2 cam bow out of synch and it will display a nock travel problem. Fix the problem and it will perform better. Find the ' sweet spot' , which may NOT be ' absolute' , and it may perform better for the given archer/shooter. With the proper equipment, any bow can be ' documented' to enable the archer/shooter to set that bow up properly after a new string/cables are installed
2. Compare the various single cam bows. Look especially at the earlier models and compare them to the later, more efficient/better shooting models. You will see a tremendous variation. Compare them to a well shooting 2 cam and you will begin to understand why there is a desire to achieve ' straight AND level' nock travel.
The tournament archer/shooter will not notice the difference as much. It is when the hunter' s broadhead is attached that the differences become more critical. Efficiency and less critical spine selection are two other notable benefits of S&L nock travel.
You' re absolutely right, PW12, I also " just don' t feel the need to get slammed by those who are loyal to certain brands." [:' (]
07-20-2003, 10:16 PM
#12
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Straight/Level Nock travel
The question I have is, since not every pro shop has the equipment needed to check nock travel, even if you buy a bow that' s advertised with straight and level nock travel how do you know if you' ve still got it when you' ve tuned the bow?
Some old fashioned knotheads like me still shoot fingers. Some shoot 3-under, some shoot split finger. Different tiller settings, different cam rollover. I don' t guess there are that many NFAA barebow class shooters left but, again, what about stringwalking? Surely that would mess with a bow' s straight and level nock travel.
We' ve got so called ' pro shops' that won' t even make sure the bow is in factory spec when they change the string and cables and don' t do much more than eyeball cam timing. Even if they had the equipment, those guys wouldn' t test to make sure the nock travel is still straight and level.
I' m not really questioning the benefit. I' m questioning the emphasis on it from a practical standpoint. Regardless of brand name.
As to why some people won' t believe something until it' s pounded into their head over and over... I can' t speak for everyone but there is only so much hype I can swallow before it all starts sounding like lies. Frankly, if it was midnight and a manufacturer told me it was dark outside, I' d have to go look for myself.
Some old fashioned knotheads like me still shoot fingers. Some shoot 3-under, some shoot split finger. Different tiller settings, different cam rollover. I don' t guess there are that many NFAA barebow class shooters left but, again, what about stringwalking? Surely that would mess with a bow' s straight and level nock travel.
We' ve got so called ' pro shops' that won' t even make sure the bow is in factory spec when they change the string and cables and don' t do much more than eyeball cam timing. Even if they had the equipment, those guys wouldn' t test to make sure the nock travel is still straight and level.
I' m not really questioning the benefit. I' m questioning the emphasis on it from a practical standpoint. Regardless of brand name.
As to why some people won' t believe something until it' s pounded into their head over and over... I can' t speak for everyone but there is only so much hype I can swallow before it all starts sounding like lies. Frankly, if it was midnight and a manufacturer told me it was dark outside, I' d have to go look for myself.
07-21-2003, 04:36 AM
#13
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Straight/Level Nock travel
Art-
What you have stated is exactly why the industry is striving for a fully " maintenence free" bow. Most everyone would love a bow that you can just " set and forget" , or pull from the box and shoot a bullet hole. We are just about there now, if it were not for the slipping of the knots on factory strings and cables on some of these designs, we would be even closer.
A Twin cam is infinitely tunable, and in the hands of Pros will perform extremely well in all circumstances provided it is kept at exacting specs. As you have stated, this is more of a pain and issue to the average archer who doesn' t have time to be running back to the shop every few days and/or it is 150 miles away, nor do they have the desire to do so. (They just want to shoot, like most of us)
So due to this the solocam was invented. But along with it came even worse string stretch and a multitude of other quirky problems, and the nock travel on the first of these was simply terrible-- that is why they developed mechanical broadheads in an attempt to mask the horrible shooting and tuning issues. They have admitedly gotten better over the years, but they simply do not have enough room within the system to develop it that much further without changing the overall design.
So---
Now we come to the hybrids---easier tuning, smooth, rock-solid walls, super-accurate and forgiving of arrow spine, really they are simply the next step forward in the natural progression of compound evolution IMHO. Most of the newest ones are basically set them and forget them, (with the exception of one that is basically like a pure twin cam) most offer S&LNT, are very forgiving, etc,etc. This is why the industry is now scrambling all over these systems, and many archers are figuring out that " hey, these things are pretty nice!" (myself included!) Yes, it did take awhile for us all to come around....
It is simply a natural progression. As stated, I am very excited to see what the future development of these systems will bring, simply because there is so much more room within the basic design to work. To date we have seen THREE different basic concepts, one of which has been upgraded around 7 times, two of which are brand new and one of those being uprgraded already to a system that IMHO offers " it all" to the general public. My scores have risen by an average of 10 points per game with increased X, 11, and 12 count since I switched from one of the best pure twin cam systems on the market to the newest hybrid, and that only tells me that this system is more forgiving and accurate overall. (for whatever reason) I am now a convert, and I' m telling you that anyone who knows me knows that I am a true twin cam fan and have been for many years. BUT--- Evolution continues, and it certainly has opened my eyes this time around. JMHO, Pinwheel 12
What you have stated is exactly why the industry is striving for a fully " maintenence free" bow. Most everyone would love a bow that you can just " set and forget" , or pull from the box and shoot a bullet hole. We are just about there now, if it were not for the slipping of the knots on factory strings and cables on some of these designs, we would be even closer.
A Twin cam is infinitely tunable, and in the hands of Pros will perform extremely well in all circumstances provided it is kept at exacting specs. As you have stated, this is more of a pain and issue to the average archer who doesn' t have time to be running back to the shop every few days and/or it is 150 miles away, nor do they have the desire to do so. (They just want to shoot, like most of us)
So due to this the solocam was invented. But along with it came even worse string stretch and a multitude of other quirky problems, and the nock travel on the first of these was simply terrible-- that is why they developed mechanical broadheads in an attempt to mask the horrible shooting and tuning issues. They have admitedly gotten better over the years, but they simply do not have enough room within the system to develop it that much further without changing the overall design.
So---
Now we come to the hybrids---easier tuning, smooth, rock-solid walls, super-accurate and forgiving of arrow spine, really they are simply the next step forward in the natural progression of compound evolution IMHO. Most of the newest ones are basically set them and forget them, (with the exception of one that is basically like a pure twin cam) most offer S&LNT, are very forgiving, etc,etc. This is why the industry is now scrambling all over these systems, and many archers are figuring out that " hey, these things are pretty nice!" (myself included!
) Yes, it did take awhile for us all to come around....It is simply a natural progression. As stated, I am very excited to see what the future development of these systems will bring, simply because there is so much more room within the basic design to work. To date we have seen THREE different basic concepts, one of which has been upgraded around 7 times, two of which are brand new and one of those being uprgraded already to a system that IMHO offers " it all" to the general public. My scores have risen by an average of 10 points per game with increased X, 11, and 12 count since I switched from one of the best pure twin cam systems on the market to the newest hybrid, and that only tells me that this system is more forgiving and accurate overall. (for whatever reason) I am now a convert, and I' m telling you that anyone who knows me knows that I am a true twin cam fan and have been for many years. BUT--- Evolution continues, and it certainly has opened my eyes this time around. JMHO,
Pinwheel 12
07-21-2003, 05:30 AM
#14
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Straight/Level Nock travel
My scores have risen by an average of 10 points per game with increased X, 11, and 12 count since I switched from one of the best pure twin cam systems on the market to the newest hybrid, and that only tells me that this system is more forgiving and accurate overall.
As for the industry coming up with a maintenance free bow..... The old steel cable bows were pretty darn close to ' set it and forget it.' And have they completely forgotten about recurves and longbows?
High Performance = High Maintenance.
07-21-2003, 07:12 AM
#15
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: WEST PALM FLORIDA
Posts: 2,890
RE: Straight/Level Nock travel
Anything mecanical , needs maintainence . I think most archers would shoot better with an in time 2 cam bow or an it time hybred , for that matter they would shoot an in time single cam well allso as long as it fit them to a tee . Single cams go out of time or index easyer and faster than the 2 cams or hybreds because of the nature of their strings and cabels ie more maintainence , but its allot easer for the manufaftures to make and stock one cam and 2 strings for a bow than it is for them to stock 2 cams and 3 string per bow . IMHO
07-21-2003, 11:25 AM
#17
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Alvo Nebraska USA
Posts: 2,057
RE: Straight/Level Nock travel
Well Nub you should have asked for one instead of " beating around the bush" 
I' ll give you my honest opinion and I believe the Pat Dually is the best high performance hunting bow on the market. It stays in tune, stores and applies tons of energy and is very accurate and forgiving. The mass weight is ideal for shooting accuracy and carrying and the ATA length is a very good happy medium between compact and target length. The Pat Dually makes just a little more noise than my ' 02 Pat single and just maybe a little more vibes also but it' s not objectional. Really I couldn' t be happier with mine. Generally it will produce 10 foot pounds more of K.E. than the draw weight at 29 inch draw and the speed will be VERY close to what the birth certificate says. Mine is a dream to shoot with 2315' s and 2317' s and is still very fast. I don' t think you will find a better string and cable from the factory than what comes standard on the Pat Dually. After about 75 shots on mine, I reset the timing on mine and it' s stayed there ever since and I now have about 1000 shots on my bow. It' s been maintenance free since the re-time and it only took 2 twists on one cable to get it right. BowTech will have to come out with something VERY special for me to want to replace this bow anytime soon and I doubt we will see anything with better specs than the Patriot Dually. The only improvement I can see would be to have sealed bearings in both cams, which would probably net only about 5 fps or so over the bronze bushings. I' m keeping mine!!!!!! Give us a full report when you get yours and good luck!!!!!!!!!!!
I' ll give you my honest opinion and I believe the Pat Dually is the best high performance hunting bow on the market. It stays in tune, stores and applies tons of energy and is very accurate and forgiving. The mass weight is ideal for shooting accuracy and carrying and the ATA length is a very good happy medium between compact and target length. The Pat Dually makes just a little more noise than my ' 02 Pat single and just maybe a little more vibes also but it' s not objectional. Really I couldn' t be happier with mine. Generally it will produce 10 foot pounds more of K.E. than the draw weight at 29 inch draw and the speed will be VERY close to what the birth certificate says. Mine is a dream to shoot with 2315' s and 2317' s and is still very fast. I don' t think you will find a better string and cable from the factory than what comes standard on the Pat Dually. After about 75 shots on mine, I reset the timing on mine and it' s stayed there ever since and I now have about 1000 shots on my bow. It' s been maintenance free since the re-time and it only took 2 twists on one cable to get it right. BowTech will have to come out with something VERY special for me to want to replace this bow anytime soon and I doubt we will see anything with better specs than the Patriot Dually. The only improvement I can see would be to have sealed bearings in both cams, which would probably net only about 5 fps or so over the bronze bushings. I' m keeping mine!!!!!! Give us a full report when you get yours and good luck!!!!!!!!!!!
07-21-2003, 11:38 AM
#18
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Straight/Level Nock travel
This is why the industry is now scrambling all over these systems, and many archers are figuring out that " hey, these things are pretty nice!" (myself included! ) Yes, it did take awhile for us all to come around....
PW12: After all these years of preaching to you about the attributes of hybrids, you' ve finally " come around" .
Arthur P: If you' re " pro shop" is going to the ATA Show this year, you might want to encourage them to attend one of my seminars concerning working on bows. A lot of good information will be transfered at these seminars.
07-21-2003, 12:37 PM
#19
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Straight/Level Nock travel
Len--
Yep, like some other people I know, some of us older guys " take awhile" to come around on certain things.
BUT, we also are cautious for good reason. How many " fads" have you seen come and go? I' ve forgotten more than I think I can remember..... Pinwheel 12
Yep, like some other people I know,
some of us older guys " take awhile" to come around on certain things.BUT, we also are cautious for good reason. How many " fads" have you seen come and go? I' ve forgotten more than I think I can remember.....
Pinwheel 12
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