Is there a problem with the Hoyt cam&1/2?
07-17-2003, 08:02 AM
#11
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oakland City Indiana USA
Posts: 524
RE: Is there a problem with the Hoyt cam&1/2?
My Bowtech dealer carries Hoyt and Parker as his other main lines and he does quite a bit of complaining about the cam and a halfers. He says that he needs someone to take the time to run a couple hundred shots through each of his new Hoyts (usually 20 or more in stock) to settle the strings and cables and then he can set them up for the buyer. It seems the guys who don’t do their own work come in shortly with a bow that will not group after the string settles. While this might not be uncommon with other brands, I had the impression that this system was somewhat less sensitive to this (from advertising or something). I’m assuming that might be one of the issues in the Hoyt and Mathews dog and pony show that has been going on. I’ve really not paid attention to the whole thing. This shop owner is a very good tech and shooter, and he seems disgusted at times with them saying they’re a joke.
I understand how many of those here wouldn’t have this problem being they are competent technicians themselves and can correct an issue like this. Is owning a cam and ½ any different than owning a 2 cam? I really don’t know yet but I think maybe.
I normally wouldn’t bother sharing second hand info but this guy really knows his stuff and normally won’t badmouth his products for no reason. I have seen a couple of them that wouldn’t group on the closest targets at the practice range, for what that is worth. To me, that is substantial.
You can' t argue with the wins being racked up with them. And BTW, our state FITA championship was won by a 19 year old shooting a 03 Ultratec so I know these bows will perform. I also know if he was shooting my bow and I was shooting his, he probably still would have beat me [X(].
-Chief
I understand how many of those here wouldn’t have this problem being they are competent technicians themselves and can correct an issue like this. Is owning a cam and ½ any different than owning a 2 cam? I really don’t know yet but I think maybe.
I normally wouldn’t bother sharing second hand info but this guy really knows his stuff and normally won’t badmouth his products for no reason. I have seen a couple of them that wouldn’t group on the closest targets at the practice range, for what that is worth. To me, that is substantial.
You can' t argue with the wins being racked up with them. And BTW, our state FITA championship was won by a 19 year old shooting a 03 Ultratec so I know these bows will perform. I also know if he was shooting my bow and I was shooting his, he probably still would have beat me [X(].
-Chief
07-17-2003, 08:16 PM
#12
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Stanton PA USA
Posts: 2,213
RE: Is there a problem with the Hoyt cam&1/2?
Chiefheadhunter, your proshop guy may be correct? I put my own strings on mine as soon as they come out of the box. I figure I have 4500 plus shots through my newest protec cam.5 now, and I have yet to put it back in a press! Sweetest shooting rig I ever owned.
The shop owner might be having fits about twisting up strings, but I bet he likes selling `em by the boatload!
The shop owner might be having fits about twisting up strings, but I bet he likes selling `em by the boatload!
07-17-2003, 09:16 PM
#13
Spike
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Fancy Gap VA USA
Posts: 96
RE: Is there a problem with the Hoyt cam&1/2?
Thanks for all the replies. That Ultratec is one of the smooothest bows I have ever shot. But after much debate, I' m just going to replace the string on my Q2XL and make due ' til next year.
07-18-2003, 08:03 AM
#15
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oakland City Indiana USA
Posts: 524
RE: Is there a problem with the Hoyt cam&1/2?
Exactly Big Country. I do remember him dogging the strings some in the process of sharing his frustrations with me. It puzzles me how some (if not most) manufacturers making top of the line equipment are selling bows fitted with not so top of the line (ok... crap) strings. They must think it isn' t going to be noticed or something. I think a $600+ bow should have a good string, period. If this is so then then these customers are only going to be unhappy comebacks which is not very good for buisness. Do you suggest that he recommend to new bow buying customers changing the string system out for a high quality set?
He does sell 3 to 5 bows a day and around here that is very good. But truthfully, the Hoyt end of the rack is generally pretty full and the Bowtech side is very active. He has really been sending them out the door. It' s quickly becoming Bowtech country in this area. BTW, I have had very good luck with the origional equipment strings and harness on my Dually.
-Chief
) strings. They must think it isn' t going to be noticed or something. I think a $600+ bow should have a good string, period. If this is so then then these customers are only going to be unhappy comebacks which is not very good for buisness. Do you suggest that he recommend to new bow buying customers changing the string system out for a high quality set? He does sell 3 to 5 bows a day and around here that is very good. But truthfully, the Hoyt end of the rack is generally pretty full and the Bowtech side is very active. He has really been sending them out the door. It' s quickly becoming Bowtech country in this area. BTW, I have had very good luck with the origional equipment strings and harness on my Dually.
-Chief
07-18-2003, 09:40 AM
#16
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Is there a problem with the Hoyt cam&1/2?
Is there a problem with the Cam and a Half eccentric system?
Not any more than the traditional style single and/or dual cam styles. Every cam system has its own set of quirks that must be dealt with in order to get the best performance from the bow and the Cam and a Half is no different.
Is there a problem with the Hoyt Cam and a Half bows?
Yes, they won' t stay on the dealer shelves.
Not any more than the traditional style single and/or dual cam styles. Every cam system has its own set of quirks that must be dealt with in order to get the best performance from the bow and the Cam and a Half is no different.
Is there a problem with the Hoyt Cam and a Half bows?
Yes, they won' t stay on the dealer shelves.
07-19-2003, 04:01 PM
#18
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Is there a problem with the Hoyt cam&1/2?
Oh, boy.....you really don' t want me to touch this one, do you?
Ok, then I won' t.
OK, I lied. LOL.[&:]
Gotta call this as I see it.
Of the three hybrid offerings available this year, the Hoyt cam.5 has absolutely the most advertising, marketing, and promotion, directly and purposely butting heads with Mathews for top spot with this in fact. Between that and the fact that they " own" the largest contingent of various-format Pro Staff in the world are pretty good reasons why they have racked up some wins this year also. (well yeah) Fact is the Pros could win with an Escalade Lil Brave if they paid them the money and contingencies Hoyt does. (or Mathews) " Wins" mean squat.
The cam.5 also is the only one of the three hybrids that does NOT offer straight and level nock point travel due to it' s eliptical cable track. Therefore it must be closely monitored, just like a " pure" twin cam. Fine if you are looking for it, bad if you think the bow is " maintenence free" .
I will put money on the table that Hoyt will " upgrade" it' s cam.5 system in 2004 to be more in line with the other current hybrid offerings, effectively saving millions in recall monies that IMHO should have been spent THIS YEAR much in the same way that Merlin approached the exact same issue with their " first generation" hybrid that exhibited much of the same issues the cam.5 currently does. (non-level nock travel, finicky tuning properties at certain drawlengths, etc.) In Merlins' case the issue has been upgraded and resolved,(with all customers receiving this upgrade also!) and they now offer the " Omega Hybrid" that offers perfectly straight and level nock travel, much like the Darton CPS, whom they licensed the technology from. Hoyt just recently got on the licensing bandwagon also, so that is why I assume this " upgrade" will soon become a reality.
The Hoyt hybrids shoot well when tuned correctly, but the other hybrids shoot better due to the straight and level travel, IMO. The other hybrids are more forgiving of arrow spine also. Randy Walk himself (President of Hoyt) professed recently in an article that the " Command cam is better" , and I think as far as " pure" twin cams go he is probably correct, simply because IMO the design of the cam.5 hasn' t " morphed" to " full hybrid" yet, being a first year design for Hoyt. I guarantee it will next year, and they will probably offer the command cam again also if what I' m reading and hearing is any indication because of the true twin cam fans who migrated to Martin, Merlin, and Bowtech this year just for their twin cam offerings. Meanwhile, many other companies are now busy designing their own hybrid systems, and I can tell you alot of them are finding out that the ones with perfectly straight and level nock travel are the best thing since the thong bikini, and many will be offering them on their bows next year. 2004 will be a very interesting year indeed, with lots of choices for everyone. Should be fun! Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
Ok, then I won' t.
OK, I lied. LOL.[&:]
Gotta call this as I see it.Of the three hybrid offerings available this year, the Hoyt cam.5 has absolutely the most advertising, marketing, and promotion, directly and purposely butting heads with Mathews for top spot with this in fact. Between that and the fact that they " own" the largest contingent of various-format Pro Staff in the world are pretty good reasons why they have racked up some wins this year also. (well yeah) Fact is the Pros could win with an Escalade Lil Brave if they paid them the money and contingencies Hoyt does. (or Mathews) " Wins" mean squat.
The cam.5 also is the only one of the three hybrids that does NOT offer straight and level nock point travel due to it' s eliptical cable track. Therefore it must be closely monitored, just like a " pure" twin cam. Fine if you are looking for it, bad if you think the bow is " maintenence free" .
I will put money on the table that Hoyt will " upgrade" it' s cam.5 system in 2004 to be more in line with the other current hybrid offerings, effectively saving millions in recall monies that IMHO should have been spent THIS YEAR much in the same way that Merlin approached the exact same issue with their " first generation" hybrid that exhibited much of the same issues the cam.5 currently does. (non-level nock travel, finicky tuning properties at certain drawlengths, etc.) In Merlins' case the issue has been upgraded and resolved,(with all customers receiving this upgrade also!) and they now offer the " Omega Hybrid" that offers perfectly straight and level nock travel, much like the Darton CPS, whom they licensed the technology from. Hoyt just recently got on the licensing bandwagon also, so that is why I assume this " upgrade" will soon become a reality.
The Hoyt hybrids shoot well when tuned correctly, but the other hybrids shoot better due to the straight and level travel, IMO. The other hybrids are more forgiving of arrow spine also. Randy Walk himself (President of Hoyt) professed recently in an article that the " Command cam is better" , and I think as far as " pure" twin cams go he is probably correct, simply because IMO the design of the cam.5 hasn' t " morphed" to " full hybrid" yet, being a first year design for Hoyt. I guarantee it will next year, and they will probably offer the command cam again also if what I' m reading and hearing is any indication because of the true twin cam fans who migrated to Martin, Merlin, and Bowtech this year just for their twin cam offerings. Meanwhile, many other companies are now busy designing their own hybrid systems, and I can tell you alot of them are finding out that the ones with perfectly straight and level nock travel are the best thing since the thong bikini, and many will be offering them on their bows next year. 2004 will be a very interesting year indeed, with lots of choices for everyone. Should be fun!
Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
07-19-2003, 05:01 PM
#19
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 9,175
RE: Is there a problem with the Hoyt cam&1/2?
I' m glad you buzzed in on this one, Pinwheel. There' s something I' ve been chewing on for a while about this and wondered if you' d take a chaw on it...
Is perfectly ' straight and level' nock travel really something we want? We KNOW the arrow is going to paradox. I would think setting up things to be slightly off would be best. That way we can make the arrow paradox the same way each shot. Trying to set up perfectly straight and level and perfectly centershot seems to me the best way to get fliers, because there is a good possibility that each arrow will paradox slightly differently from the last one, and slightly different from the next one.
Whatcha think?
Is perfectly ' straight and level' nock travel really something we want? We KNOW the arrow is going to paradox. I would think setting up things to be slightly off would be best. That way we can make the arrow paradox the same way each shot. Trying to set up perfectly straight and level and perfectly centershot seems to me the best way to get fliers, because there is a good possibility that each arrow will paradox slightly differently from the last one, and slightly different from the next one.
Whatcha think?
07-19-2003, 07:13 PM
#20
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Is there a problem with the Hoyt cam&1/2?
Arthur-
All arrows paradox, as you stated above. The most effective and efficient paradox is one that is negated quickly, this makes for a more consistent and accurate arrow. Now, we have already determined that all arrows must and do paradox, so what we are looking for is the quickest recovery in all applications for best overall performance---if we shoot a bow that has both un-straight and un-level nock travel, we have two outside forces to contend with at launch in addition to the propulsion forces and correct rest position for the setup. If we have straight but not level travel, we have one, and if we have both straight and level we have none and can concentrate on the direct propulsion of the arrow itself and rest position, and can quickly tune to a perfect tear for best results. I have found that both the Merlin and Darton systems are about as close to perfect as you can get as far as nock travel goes, and this simply makes for a much more manageable system that also offers a wider range of applicable arrow spine due to the lesser outside forces with which to contend. THIS is the " biggie" I feel for true perfect straight and level nock travel systems.
I have been a " pure twin" fan for many years, and realistically never thought I' d jump ship, but the more I " get into" the hybrids, the more I find I like about them. (Seems I' m not the only one here, the industry is simply buzzing about them now) Too bad Rex Darlington, (owner of Darton) didn' t have a larger voice when Matt McPhereson and he both came onto the scene, or we would be approx. 10 years further ahead than we are currently IMHO. It simply took this long for the industry to figure things out, bottom line.
They ARE the way of the future IMHO, simply because there is more room to move within the system with them. Darton has upgraded the CPS several times, Merlin has once upgraded theirs significantly in only the past few months, and it has been a miraculous transformation for them and right now I feel they offer the best hybrid system on the market to be honest. I feel Hoyt will also follow suit with this, and Darton will continue on with their ongoing development of great equipment, along with most everyone else who will jump onboard the bus in 2004 and years to come.
Straight and level nock travel is definately a good thing, and we will see more emphasis being put on this in the future. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
All arrows paradox, as you stated above. The most effective and efficient paradox is one that is negated quickly, this makes for a more consistent and accurate arrow. Now, we have already determined that all arrows must and do paradox, so what we are looking for is the quickest recovery in all applications for best overall performance---if we shoot a bow that has both un-straight and un-level nock travel, we have two outside forces to contend with at launch in addition to the propulsion forces and correct rest position for the setup. If we have straight but not level travel, we have one, and if we have both straight and level we have none and can concentrate on the direct propulsion of the arrow itself and rest position, and can quickly tune to a perfect tear for best results. I have found that both the Merlin and Darton systems are about as close to perfect as you can get as far as nock travel goes, and this simply makes for a much more manageable system that also offers a wider range of applicable arrow spine due to the lesser outside forces with which to contend. THIS is the " biggie" I feel for true perfect straight and level nock travel systems.
I have been a " pure twin" fan for many years, and realistically never thought I' d jump ship, but the more I " get into" the hybrids, the more I find I like about them. (Seems I' m not the only one here, the industry is simply buzzing about them now) Too bad Rex Darlington, (owner of Darton) didn' t have a larger voice when Matt McPhereson and he both came onto the scene, or we would be approx. 10 years further ahead than we are currently IMHO. It simply took this long for the industry to figure things out, bottom line.
They ARE the way of the future IMHO, simply because there is more room to move within the system with them. Darton has upgraded the CPS several times, Merlin has once upgraded theirs significantly in only the past few months, and it has been a miraculous transformation for them and right now I feel they offer the best hybrid system on the market to be honest. I feel Hoyt will also follow suit with this, and Darton will continue on with their ongoing development of great equipment, along with most everyone else who will jump onboard the bus in 2004 and years to come.
Straight and level nock travel is definately a good thing, and we will see more emphasis being put on this in the future. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12