pdq 5oh

Pinwheel, so HCA can shoot as fast as any bow, shooting 4-4.5 gpp. While the others are at 5 gpp? I' d bet other company' s bows will stand up to 4-4.5 gpp as well. But they won' t have to. I fully expect some new archers will buy the HCA & light arrows, fully expecting to shoot 400 fps all day long. I also fully expect the bow that blew up at the ATA Show won' t be the only one. The problem is the next one may not be in a machine, housed in a Plexiglas enclosure.

Pinwheel 12

Phil-

Your arguement has no basis of fact, you are talking through emotion for your love of the Bowtechs and little else here it seems. No-one here is trying to take anything away from you or them, the Bowtechs are very fast bows and still arguably manufacture the fastest bow at 5 g per lb on the planet. No worries mate!

I' m not implying, nor is anyone else,(I hope) that this HCA bow should be shot at 400 fps all day long![] What we are implying is that the technology is definately advancing, and this bow should shoot close to 400 a hellova lot safer due to it' s extremely strong riser when compared to another bow with a riser of aluminum when all other components are of equal value, which they pretty much are in this case if comparing them. Run a BK2 for instance with aluminum riser at 3 grains and/or see how long it lasts in the " dreaded plexiglass enclosure" or anywhere else when dry-firing it through many cycles repeatedly. I will guarantee it will not be as long as the High Country with carbon riser, probably about 1/3 of the cycles if it' s lucky. Now take them both and put them in a " real-life" scenario shooting ultra light arrows at high poundages on a 3D range or anywhere for that matter. Which one would you better trust at high speeds and light arrows? Which one would you better trust with heavy arrows while hunting? The stronger components will always prevail, and carbon weave is many, many times stronger than aluminum. OK,class dismissed.[&:]

Nothing wrong with the Bowtechs, but there is nothing wrong with this High Country bow either. When looking at a pure " speed bow" , I know if I' m going to try to reach 400fps I know exactly where my money is going, and it will not be with aluminum risers such as we have today.(I like my body the way it is, thanks. I remember the days of parts flying everywhere, and we need that strength in bow components! ) As I stated, technology always advances, we simply have to accept it. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

DaveC

I always figured the advancement of faster arrow speed was going to come from new cam technology, not lowering the weight of the arrow being shot.
Are cams at the upper edge of the speeds they can produce?
Is their any room for more FPS in a shootable cam?

Pinwheel 12

Cams are about maxxed out with current designs, so they have to look elsewhere now for speed for the future advancements of bows. Draw force curves are pushing the limitations of efficiency, a pure 100% efficiency drawforce from todays' current bow designs will top out at somewhere around 418fps according to the laws of physics. It will also be very nasty to shoot. We will always continue the quest for additional speed, so of course there will be many new trials and errors and eventually advancements from them using newer, lighter, and stronger materials, and alternative propulsion designs such as air-assist, ratchet cams, force multipliers, etc. (We have already seen the force multipliers over the last 20 years, we will undoubtedly see more in the future along with many new inventions) These new designs sound awful " goofy" and strange to us right now but I can recall when the compound first was introduced, everyone thought Mr. Allen was crazy, too! The technology will continue to advance, make no mistake there, and we will flock to try them, just as it has been done since day one when man invented the stick and string.

One thing to remember in all of this hubub with the bow manufacturers and " speed bows" (or any bow for that matter) however-----there isn' t a bow company out there who wishes to be sued by anyone for bodily harm or negligence, and they all try hard to make sure their products are safe for the consumer, it is simple as that. The bad press (and lawsuits) could definately bury them in a heartbeat! (Look at the bad press that came from a mere cable failure at the HCA booth at the ATA show! Rumors, bad press, and word-of mouth can kill these companies very quickly) Therefore every bow is normally tested quite thoroughly amongst all companies to ensure that it is relatively safe for production before ever hitting the streets. Unfortunately isolated incidents can and will occur, that is allplayed upon percentages of items sold. Of course if we are also idiots and run them right on the edge of the abyss, then we have no-one to blame but ourselves,[&:] but if we run them in a relatively " safe" range we can still enjoy their capabilities--- at least until the next design comes to better it, that is. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12

Straightarrow

I agree that HCA' s demonstration is to show strength not speed. In a hunting situation with fixed blade broadheads, speed is limited more by arrow spine than any other factor, in my opinion. A particular arrow is only going to fly well up to a certain speed. At some point, it' s going to flex too much on the shot, to get fixed blades flying properly, no matter how well tuned the bow is or what brand bow it' s shot out of.

pdq 5oh

Kevin, I do speak from fact. Fact is, the bow blew up. Fact is, HCA advertises 400 fps. With an extremely light arrow! I can' t imagine you don' t agree that some people will buy this setup & hope to shoot it at 400 fps. I won' t argue that other brands of bows wouldn' t suffer the same fate, as the HCA did at the ATA. But no other manufacturer advertises shooting these light arrows to attain the speed they claim. I don' t doubt that the HCA bows don' t shoot fine with an arrow of reasonable (safe) weight. So why carelessly advertise the use of, IMO, a potentially dangerous setup? Quotes from their ad

" 1. Military Grade CARBON TOUGH BOWS...
2. Two New Speed Cams designed to be shootable with....
3. Ultra Lite, Highest Grade Carbon Speed Pro Arrows!
HUGE SPEED GAINS......300 TO 400 fps
Minimum of 20 fps FASTER than Conventional Twin Cams!"

The emphasis here seems to be more on speed. Can you argue that someone new to archery might not be inclined to run off to an HCA dealer & buy this setup, not realizing they are taking chances? I would hope the dealers will point this out. Though some may not; it would hurt potential sales possibly. I don' t wish to imply that HCA makes bows of inferior quality. I' m sure they make a good product. I do wish to imply that their advertising is potentially harmful. Who pays the most attention to advertising? People that are less knowledgeable? Possibly new customers? The people most at risk. Not people that know better.

silentassassin

I feel like I have earned the right to be critical. I owned a carbon 4-Runner the riser literally snapped into. The bow was brand new and had only been shot about 100 times. I got through shooting layed the bow on the couch. It layed there for about an hour and them simply blew up. Thank God I wasn' t shooting it. The riser snapped into about 1.5 inches below the limb bolt[] So, that next generation technology, stronger that steel stuff just ain' t selling with me. I have seen a first hand demonstration of of the carbon and I know it can blow up just like anything else. So I still feel like their adds are misleading and a liability waiting to happen.

Pinwheel 12

Phil, I understand what you are trying to say, thanks for explaining your view. Point of this is tho, WHO is to say how much stress(and speed) a carbon riser can withstand compared to an aluminum riser? Certainly not you or I my friend, we have no definitive means of testing them! But, the factories do, and I can assure you they will not let things out that are totally unsafe to use as it certainly will not benefit them in the long run. What I can say is that we DO know that the military-grade carbon is many many times stronger than aluminum,(this is documented in many areas , not just archery) and the carbon-riser bow HAS withstood many thousands of dry-fires, multiple times more than any aluminum. So again, who' s to say it cannot withstand 3 grains per lb for an average lifespan of a bow? If we do not feel safe about it, we don' t have to shoot that light of an arrow, simple. Yes, some guys will try to hit that 400fps marker, no doubt. I believe it can do it too, I saw bows years ago shot with CAST risers at 425fps,(fastest bow contest) and most withstood the 3 shots needed to qualify before failing at as much as 110lbs! Todays' bows can withstand alot more than we think they can, and the carbon just makes things even safer.

The Bowtech BK2 was also thought to be a radical design that was totally unsafe to shoot at it' s speeds when it debuted. I' m quite sure a percentage of them have failed also, but we are not pointing fingers saying they are complete junk and are totally unsafe anymore, are we? Fact is, with the carbon being so much stronger than the aluminum, I would be willing to bet the HCA design CAN withstand much more stress than it' s aluminum cousins and be readily capable of shooting 3 g per lb. Seems HCA is willing to stake something on this too.... One failure(or even a few) does not a bow company make, whether it was done in someones' basement, or at the ATA show. As stated earlier, that could' ve happened to anyone.

Again, I do not condone shooting bows that are unsafe, but seeing as I used to myself shoot with cast risers and insanely lightweight arrows at poundages of 85lbs or more and speeds well over 340 fps,(and I' m still standing here!) is proof enough to me that a 60-70lb bow that is hundreds of times stronger than those bows of yesterday will safely shoot speeds upwards of 375 with little trouble, especially if they are now being put into production with advertising to match. Companies cannot afford the lawsuits and bad press, so they must have some serious faith in this design. I' m going to try one soon, my curiosity has now been raised due to this discussion. Just my own thoughts, Pinwheel 12

JeffB

I think folks are not targeting the underlying questions in this whole “debate”

1) Do most people have enough faith in HCA to be the company to be making this (for lack of better term) “huge push forward”.

2) The riser may very well be designed to take the abuse, but what about the rest of the components?

From what I’ve seen of recent HCA bows (including the Brute Force Elite I purchased and reviewed last year) my answer to question #1 would be laughter followed by a resounding “NO”. In the past 7 to 8 years HCA has continually failed to demonstrate that they even have enough QC measures to produce a tight “normal” bow, let alone a “speed barrier breaking Bow of the Future”. I certainly do not trust a company that has a shaky foundation (both in the integrity of the owner and in R&D) to be putting out these bows.

Which leads in to # 2

Let’s assume the riser is foolproof, and it very well may be, though historically that has not been the case, but let’s just assume that every cabon riser that goes out the door can shoot a 225 grain arrow at 425 FPS all day long.

But what about the axles? Are they using an upgraded axle that can take that kind of stress? Anyone who has sold and/or shot HCA bows for any period of time knows they will go through some axles (and bushings)

What about the limb system? They better beef ‘em up and do a better job of QC on these, as they are often are not cut /sanded uniformly, Axles are not always center drilled correctly, and they are more susceptible to limb lean than any other split limb system I’ve dealt with.

What about the pockets? Are the limb pockets going to be able to take that initial brunt of energy as this bow is fired? Probably, and especially so if they use some kind of vibration eliminating technology with them (and they do)

Cams/Idlers? While the machining I’ve seen on recent HCA’s looks very nice, I’d hate to venture a guess either way if these cams/idlers are structurally sound to take that kind of beating day in and day out. Beef ‘em up, and this should not be a problem.

Strings and cables? This is one of the big areas. These are going to take a pounding. If they are using the same strings and cables that are on my Brute Force, they are not going to last long. They definitely need beefing up.

I think the riser is the smallest concern w/ this equation. The big concern is HCA’s spotty QC, pretty sloppy limb design, and use of less than optimal strength components. These (like the bow that was dryfired at the show) are going to be where the primary failure will be.

And that does not even take into accunt the fact that bow they had at show was probably above and byond qulaity wise the majority of bows that will go out the door. This is not a prob exlusive to HCA, but this is definitelya factor to consider.

Another note: to get those speeds most of us will need to use HCA’s new carbon arrows to get proper spines (unless we’d all like to go back to overdraws). Thin walls and IC carbons do not make for a very durable set-up.

Do we need this ‘push? Absolutely. Is HCA the company to do it, is the question. I’d be much more inclined to believe that the companies that will bring us better & SAFE technology to push the limits will be the companies w/ the most experienced R&D departments: People like Hoyt/Easton, PSE, Martin, Darton,etc. HCA historically has made a very good shooting bow , but they have been riddled with failures of all sorts from experimentation: The Ultra Extreme. The Carbon Lite-Speed. Their carbon tree-stand (most of you probably never even saw that). The Phantom Extreme cam went through several incarnations before they got it beefed up enough to where they would not crack shooting 6 grains per pound, let-alone 5 or under. Hell,they couldn' t even get thier cable guards right for 5 years.

HCA’s history speaks for itself. A company that was once near or at the top of the heap, who was mis-managed and poor QC’ed nearly to death. This is NOTthe company I want building my 3 grain per pound shooter.

Rack-attack

Jeff,

My thoughts exactly!!!!![:-][:-]

See if you wait long enough someone will come along and post everything you wanted to say - and say it better