Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
05-13-2003, 01:19 PM
#81
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Good Ol\' Maine
Posts: 6
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
Hey Guys,
I just want to thank you all for your responses. I wasn' t expecting to get this many and to be honest I have thouroughly enjoyed reading every post. I never thought this was going to be such a hot topic. I guess I was way off!!
Enjoy and thanks again,
Corey
I just want to thank you all for your responses. I wasn' t expecting to get this many and to be honest I have thouroughly enjoyed reading every post. I never thought this was going to be such a hot topic. I guess I was way off!!
Enjoy and thanks again,
Corey
05-13-2003, 02:47 PM
#82
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
I was not referring to grouping broadheads with fieldpoints, that is an invidual choice based on what they have read, what they agree with, and what their tuning experiences have been or become.
I was responding specifically to the claims that an arrow that has a spine not matched to the draw-weight, even a " way UNDERSPINED shaft," or even a " wet noodle" can be tuned perfectly." No way!
If you adjust the bow' s draw-weight down, and make a few or corrections with particular gear, until the spine of the shaft or noodle is NOW perfectly or closely compatible, you are not NOW shooting an underspined arrow or noodle. You have matched the bow and spine.
However, in the way it was said, it is claimed that a tweak and a tinker with some of the gear to get an ill-matched shaft or noodle to hit the POI and tentatively group, means that one can PERFECTLY TUNE a very badly matched shaft or noodle for PERFECT flight. No way! You might hit the mark, but you cannot claim that the arrow is PERFECTLY TUNED. [
]
I want to see how many good shooters/tuners buy into that claim. Spine match is the critical foundation of arrow flight and CONSISTENT accuracy.
I was responding specifically to the claims that an arrow that has a spine not matched to the draw-weight, even a " way UNDERSPINED shaft," or even a " wet noodle" can be tuned perfectly." No way!
If you adjust the bow' s draw-weight down, and make a few or corrections with particular gear, until the spine of the shaft or noodle is NOW perfectly or closely compatible, you are not NOW shooting an underspined arrow or noodle. You have matched the bow and spine.
However, in the way it was said, it is claimed that a tweak and a tinker with some of the gear to get an ill-matched shaft or noodle to hit the POI and tentatively group, means that one can PERFECTLY TUNE a very badly matched shaft or noodle for PERFECT flight. No way! You might hit the mark, but you cannot claim that the arrow is PERFECTLY TUNED. [
]I want to see how many good shooters/tuners buy into that claim. Spine match is the critical foundation of arrow flight and CONSISTENT accuracy.
05-13-2003, 03:32 PM
#83
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 65
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
c903,
I will probably see Don Rabska of Easton tomorrow for a little arrow slinging and a bite. If you send me a private E-mail with a phone number that he can reach you at, I will ask him to give you a ring when he has a chance, so that you can get the facts from the horse’s mouth (27 years at Easton and an Olympic Level Coach).
All sorts of high speed video research have left no question as to the results. There is no myth, no Voodoo, no guessing, just thousands of test shots bearing out the simple realities of arrow flight. .
You can choose to keep your head in the sand if you like. One can practice results based tuning or wishful thinking. The flaws in ones tuning that don' t show up much at 30 or so yards will be very apparent at 70 or 80 meters. A bow that stacks broadheads at 70 meters is a dream to shoot in close.
With regard to the wet noodle - yes it is TRUE. Carbon shafts dampen oscillations very quickly. As a result you can achieve terrific results with a way underspined shaft shot with a release and drop-away rest. You can achieve perfect flight and scores. With a broadhead on this same shaft, the flight gets ruined before the shaft has a chance to dampen out. This does not hold as true with aluminum shafts which are much slower to dampen. The beauty of ultra high speed video is that we SHOOT FAST and ASK QUESTIONS LATER.
I might also add as an aside---Level knock travel is a GOOD THING.
Good Hunting and Check Six.
I will probably see Don Rabska of Easton tomorrow for a little arrow slinging and a bite. If you send me a private E-mail with a phone number that he can reach you at, I will ask him to give you a ring when he has a chance, so that you can get the facts from the horse’s mouth (27 years at Easton and an Olympic Level Coach).
All sorts of high speed video research have left no question as to the results. There is no myth, no Voodoo, no guessing, just thousands of test shots bearing out the simple realities of arrow flight. .
You can choose to keep your head in the sand if you like. One can practice results based tuning or wishful thinking. The flaws in ones tuning that don' t show up much at 30 or so yards will be very apparent at 70 or 80 meters. A bow that stacks broadheads at 70 meters is a dream to shoot in close.
With regard to the wet noodle - yes it is TRUE. Carbon shafts dampen oscillations very quickly. As a result you can achieve terrific results with a way underspined shaft shot with a release and drop-away rest. You can achieve perfect flight and scores. With a broadhead on this same shaft, the flight gets ruined before the shaft has a chance to dampen out. This does not hold as true with aluminum shafts which are much slower to dampen. The beauty of ultra high speed video is that we SHOOT FAST and ASK QUESTIONS LATER.
I might also add as an aside---Level knock travel is a GOOD THING.
Good Hunting and Check Six.
05-13-2003, 06:32 PM
#84
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
Nubbb
What is this? Attempted intimidation via a " name-dropping" tactic? Or a bit of " I am right and greater than you, because see who I know?" [:-] [:' (]
I would rather you give me your email and telephone number, and I will attempt to get Bob or Terry Ragsdale to call you. However, I am positive both would say, " We have more and better things to do than waste our time trying to educate one person."
You are now (only) talking about (just) the apples and I am talking about the oranges you (also) threw in. I am disagreeing with the (paraphrased) -underspined can be perfectly tuned to perform perfectly while still underspined to the point of being a " wet noodle" - claim you made and support.
You keep backtracking to the grouping of broadheads, and now you have added to the soup; " one' s tuning flaws do not show up until a particular distance is exceeded….and carbon oscillations absorb some of the underspine affects, releases and fall-aways allow you to get away with shooting arrow that are not correctly spined……broadheads ruin a good thing…..none of this is true with aluninum shafts because they dampen sloweer…..level nock travel is a good thing….high speed video is beautiful……shoot fast and ask questions later…..etc"
Forgive me, but what are you trying to say? I do not understand your point….at all. Reads like a rapid and random selection of excerpts from several articles.
For clarity, allow me to ask three questions based on some early claims that you supported, and made additional claims in defense. Try to answer without fogging the glass.
1. It is it necessary that shaft spine is perfectly or very closely matched to the bow, gear, and shooter' s form, or vice versa?
2. Although a shaft is underspined or overspined, can the arrows being perfectly tuned although a shooter' s single or overall preference of setup remains incorrect for the shaft spine?
3. Subsequent to tweaking and tinkering, a person is able to get shafts that remain undetspined/overspined to hit the mark; are the shafts perfectly tuned, and can the flight and accuracy be considered to be reliable and stable for target or hunting purposes.
PS: Tell Don that C903 said, " Hey!"
What is this? Attempted intimidation via a " name-dropping" tactic? Or a bit of " I am right and greater than you, because see who I know?" [:-] [:' (]
I would rather you give me your email and telephone number, and I will attempt to get Bob or Terry Ragsdale to call you. However, I am positive both would say, " We have more and better things to do than waste our time trying to educate one person."
You are now (only) talking about (just) the apples and I am talking about the oranges you (also) threw in. I am disagreeing with the (paraphrased) -underspined can be perfectly tuned to perform perfectly while still underspined to the point of being a " wet noodle" - claim you made and support.
You keep backtracking to the grouping of broadheads, and now you have added to the soup; " one' s tuning flaws do not show up until a particular distance is exceeded….and carbon oscillations absorb some of the underspine affects, releases and fall-aways allow you to get away with shooting arrow that are not correctly spined……broadheads ruin a good thing…..none of this is true with aluninum shafts because they dampen sloweer…..level nock travel is a good thing….high speed video is beautiful……shoot fast and ask questions later…..etc"
Forgive me, but what are you trying to say? I do not understand your point….at all. Reads like a rapid and random selection of excerpts from several articles.
For clarity, allow me to ask three questions based on some early claims that you supported, and made additional claims in defense. Try to answer without fogging the glass.
1. It is it necessary that shaft spine is perfectly or very closely matched to the bow, gear, and shooter' s form, or vice versa?
2. Although a shaft is underspined or overspined, can the arrows being perfectly tuned although a shooter' s single or overall preference of setup remains incorrect for the shaft spine?
3. Subsequent to tweaking and tinkering, a person is able to get shafts that remain undetspined/overspined to hit the mark; are the shafts perfectly tuned, and can the flight and accuracy be considered to be reliable and stable for target or hunting purposes.
PS: Tell Don that C903 said, " Hey!"
05-13-2003, 09:13 PM
#85
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ks.
Posts: 87
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
Wow, somebody sure doesnt like to be disagreed with. Hey C903, Ive talked to Bob Mizek at N.A.P, and hes also one of those who believe they can hit together. Gosh, I really hope that little bit of name dropping impressed you.Im gonna take my highly tuned bow, { or untuned, depending on which side of the fence your on,} that magically groups both together, and very nicely, I might add, and walk away quietly. May all your groups be tight. Peace.
May all your groups be tight. Peace.
05-13-2003, 11:38 PM
#86
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 65
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
C903,
While your wife must be a Saint, I’m afraid I’m not. It is pretty clear that you are more interested in hearing your own rhetoric than in advancing your knowledge of arrow flight dynamics. I can only recommend that you do what you like as I don’t believe that you are sincerely interested in the facts.
C903, though you apparently don’t care to hear from my friend (I won’t mention his name), the offer still stands. I have another friend that manufactures shooting machines (again I won’t mention his name either). I’ll bet a resourceful gent like yourself could figure out who this might be and give him a call on you own. He loves to talk on this subject and I know would be more than happy to speak with you.
Or you could stick to your guns. What the heck, how does that old saying go? - (something) is bliss.
Have a nice day and tune' em your way.
While your wife must be a Saint, I’m afraid I’m not. It is pretty clear that you are more interested in hearing your own rhetoric than in advancing your knowledge of arrow flight dynamics. I can only recommend that you do what you like as I don’t believe that you are sincerely interested in the facts.
C903, though you apparently don’t care to hear from my friend (I won’t mention his name), the offer still stands. I have another friend that manufactures shooting machines (again I won’t mention his name either). I’ll bet a resourceful gent like yourself could figure out who this might be and give him a call on you own. He loves to talk on this subject and I know would be more than happy to speak with you.
Or you could stick to your guns. What the heck, how does that old saying go? - (something) is bliss.
Have a nice day and tune' em your way.
05-14-2003, 12:04 AM
#87
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Stanton PA USA
Posts: 2,213
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
I fail to understand what all the yacking is about?
c3po, don`t tell me that an obvious legend like yourself cannot stack broadheads and fieldpoints on top of each other!
And I`m not talking within 2" @ 20yd.
Make it 50yd.
Is it an absolute to killing deer? I don`t know, as It`s been too long ago to remember the last time I went afield with a bow that would not do this!
Some of you guys make it sound like you building a control panel for the freekin space shuttle.
It`s a stick and string fer crying out loud.
Len, you are too nice! Just tell `em like it is.
c3po, don`t tell me that an obvious legend like yourself cannot stack broadheads and fieldpoints on top of each other!
And I`m not talking within 2" @ 20yd.
Make it 50yd.
Is it an absolute to killing deer? I don`t know, as It`s been too long ago to remember the last time I went afield with a bow that would not do this!
Some of you guys make it sound like you building a control panel for the freekin space shuttle.
It`s a stick and string fer crying out loud.
Len, you are too nice! Just tell `em like it is.
05-14-2003, 12:16 AM
#88
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Way Out West
Posts: 65
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
Big Country,
You hit the nail on the head. And yes, we do get too carried away with experimenting endlessly with these simple sticks and strings. I think Len does too, but it' s all fun.
Best....Nubbb
You hit the nail on the head. And yes, we do get too carried away with experimenting endlessly with these simple sticks and strings. I think Len does too, but it' s all fun.
Best....Nubbb
05-14-2003, 12:49 AM
#89
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: New Stanton PA USA
Posts: 2,213
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
Nubbb, I don`t want to make it sound like I have never experimented.
I don`t have have presses, jigs, chronographs, every string material known to man, and the best homemade string jig of all time for nothing!
It`s just funny to me sometimes that some people make this game out to be way more complicated than it has to be.
Take Care
I don`t have have presses, jigs, chronographs, every string material known to man, and the best homemade string jig of all time for nothing!
It`s just funny to me sometimes that some people make this game out to be way more complicated than it has to be.
Take Care
05-14-2003, 06:51 AM
#90
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
BC:
Telling it like it ' is' gets me into too much trouble. Heck, I' m always in trouble. I' ve always been told, however, to " never stand on the corner and argue with fools, ' cause passersbys don' t know who is who." [&:] Just kidding.
Anyway, I think I was first on many forums to challenge one cam nock travel problems, the first to point out the cracking of the nock ends on the internal component carbon arrows, outspoken about the draw length dilemma, etc. All this was done by doing extensive evaluation and testing. I know what results I get and am willing to share them with whoever will listen. People who know me will tell you that I don' t hold back when talking to the manufacturers. If it will aid them in getting better products on the market, they and us benefit.
If varying results are expressed, I' ll listen but want to know the basis for those varying results. I' m an engineering type and we are a different breed. You can' t just tell me something. I have to SEE THE DATA. And, many of you know that my data is always available should anyone want to examine it.
Some people find it easy to ask questions. Answers are much harder to get. I do my best and then sit back and watch and listen. It does get very interesting at times and I learn just as others do.
Telling it like it ' is' gets me into too much trouble.
Heck, I' m always in trouble. I' ve always been told, however, to " never stand on the corner and argue with fools, ' cause passersbys don' t know who is who." [&:] Just kidding.Anyway, I think I was first on many forums to challenge one cam nock travel problems, the first to point out the cracking of the nock ends on the internal component carbon arrows, outspoken about the draw length dilemma, etc. All this was done by doing extensive evaluation and testing. I know what results I get and am willing to share them with whoever will listen. People who know me will tell you that I don' t hold back when talking to the manufacturers. If it will aid them in getting better products on the market, they and us benefit.
If varying results are expressed, I' ll listen but want to know the basis for those varying results. I' m an engineering type and we are a different breed. You can' t just tell me something. I have to SEE THE DATA. And, many of you know that my data is always available should anyone want to examine it.
Some people find it easy to ask questions. Answers are much harder to get. I do my best and then sit back and watch and listen. It does get very interesting at times and I learn just as others do.