Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
05-08-2003, 11:31 AM
#43
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
Good post, PW. We can agree totally on this ' approach' .
The original post was:
Mainah77
We were requested by this hunter to answer this question based on normal hunting criteria at 25 yards. With this in mind, and not 60-70 yard shots, I hope we' ve given him enough information to try to achieve a better tune on his equipment/form. And, " to be able to shoot the same with both tips."
That' s the neat thing about this sport; there are so many aspects and differing approaches to those many aspects. When Mr. Ragsdale states,
, I have a little problem with that. I can read that as though it says that you' re not an ' ethical' hunter unless you have 2 of something. While I can agree with him to an extent, I have to take into consideration the average hunter, like the original poster and those who I see walking through my doors - one bow, one sight, one set of arrows, and wanting to do the best he/she can with limited resources. I don' t believe Mr. Ragsdale meant to call this hunter unethical; but, with this and many, many cases like it, that could be interpreted.
From the beginning you will notice that I have stated tolerance and kept away from the absolute. In the case of Mr. Ragsdale, he relates more to absolute because he is conditioned that way and can afford that privilege. I don' t want to loose sight that the majority of archers are bowhunters and that I should better understand their needs and perspectives. The original poster is my case in point.
Arthur, you' re right; but, you' re also relating this situation to tournament shooting of BHs at " 60-70 yards" much the way I think Mr. Ragsdale does. I also agree with you about the nock situation. My point, however, is to set things in perspective for that ' average' hunter with limited resources and capabilities. Heck, you' ll even get differences with different lighting, temperature, and other natural elements. Isn' t this why we should teach everyone to limit their shots on animals to as close as they can get them?
PW hit the nail on the head with his " middle of the road" term. With this in mind, the average hunter can achieve a relatively same POI with his FTs and BHs at conservative hunting distances. Suggesting that he should consider less by arbitrarily moving sights/pins, and again that' s based on tolerances, is really not in my teaching philosophy. Mainah77 wanted " to shoot the same with both tips." I think that' s possible given his situation and with him now understanding what tolerances he should expect.
All in all, I hope many have learned from this exchange of thoughts, ideas, and data. I know I always benefit by this sort of dialogue.
The original post was:
Mainah77
Why is it I can shoot consistant groups at 25 yards with 100 grain field points, but when I put on my 100 grain broadheads my arrows are not hitting the same as the arrows with the field points?
Thoughts?
I would like to be able to shoot the same with both tips.
Thoughts?
I would like to be able to shoot the same with both tips.
That' s the neat thing about this sport; there are so many aspects and differing approaches to those many aspects. When Mr. Ragsdale states,
" ethical hunters will either have 2 bows ready for the 2 jobs, or 2 sights for their bow, one zeroed in with the broadheads and another zeroed in for the fieldpoints."
From the beginning you will notice that I have stated tolerance and kept away from the absolute. In the case of Mr. Ragsdale, he relates more to absolute because he is conditioned that way and can afford that privilege. I don' t want to loose sight that the majority of archers are bowhunters and that I should better understand their needs and perspectives. The original poster is my case in point.
Arthur, you' re right; but, you' re also relating this situation to tournament shooting of BHs at " 60-70 yards" much the way I think Mr. Ragsdale does. I also agree with you about the nock situation. My point, however, is to set things in perspective for that ' average' hunter with limited resources and capabilities. Heck, you' ll even get differences with different lighting, temperature, and other natural elements. Isn' t this why we should teach everyone to limit their shots on animals to as close as they can get them?
PW hit the nail on the head with his " middle of the road" term. With this in mind, the average hunter can achieve a relatively same POI with his FTs and BHs at conservative hunting distances. Suggesting that he should consider less by arbitrarily moving sights/pins, and again that' s based on tolerances, is really not in my teaching philosophy. Mainah77 wanted " to shoot the same with both tips." I think that' s possible given his situation and with him now understanding what tolerances he should expect.
All in all, I hope many have learned from this exchange of thoughts, ideas, and data. I know I always benefit by this sort of dialogue.
05-08-2003, 03:40 PM
#44
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
Well, it appears that Len wants to sum up this thread by giving his " spin" and " bottom line" conclusion. So, here is mine.
The skill level of Bob Ragsdale or his ability to own several bows and a truckload of accessories has nothing to do with the price of tea!!!
Bob is answering questions posed by (mostly) average and inexperienced shooters. He is giving advice that he firmly believes ANY shooter should abide by. His answers relate only to an arrow setup and comparative issues; not the skill of the shooter nor the quality and amount of gear one owns or can own.
Also, in the context that Ragsdale used the term " ethical," I believe he is referring to other definitions of the term (ethical) e.g., conscientious, scrupulous, proper, etc. to mean; if you care enough to do the very best, you do not split the difference.
What does temperature, lighting, natural elements, distance, etc, have to do with the question at hand? I thought we were discussing the necessity, the legitimacy, and the efficiency of trying to get two different setups (shafts) to fly and impact the same?
Is it me, or does anyone else see fog rolling in?
Here is MY bottom line:
You want to shoot targets with field points, tune your bow and shafts to shoot just field points. You want to shoot large game with broadheads, tune your bow and shafts to shoot just broadheads….and neither the twain need meet!!
As others have so clearly and so correctly pointed out; why split the difference? Doing so just does not make sense, no matter how many ways you spin it.
The skill level of Bob Ragsdale or his ability to own several bows and a truckload of accessories has nothing to do with the price of tea!!!
Bob is answering questions posed by (mostly) average and inexperienced shooters. He is giving advice that he firmly believes ANY shooter should abide by. His answers relate only to an arrow setup and comparative issues; not the skill of the shooter nor the quality and amount of gear one owns or can own.
Also, in the context that Ragsdale used the term " ethical," I believe he is referring to other definitions of the term (ethical) e.g., conscientious, scrupulous, proper, etc. to mean; if you care enough to do the very best, you do not split the difference.
What does temperature, lighting, natural elements, distance, etc, have to do with the question at hand? I thought we were discussing the necessity, the legitimacy, and the efficiency of trying to get two different setups (shafts) to fly and impact the same?
Is it me, or does anyone else see fog rolling in?
Here is MY bottom line:
You want to shoot targets with field points, tune your bow and shafts to shoot just field points. You want to shoot large game with broadheads, tune your bow and shafts to shoot just broadheads….and neither the twain need meet!!
As others have so clearly and so correctly pointed out; why split the difference? Doing so just does not make sense, no matter how many ways you spin it.
05-08-2003, 06:00 PM
#45
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location:
Posts: 2,413
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
Let' s say I start out tuning my broadhead flight, before ever tuning for or shooting field tips out of my setup. I bareshaft tune (with tape weighting the nock end of arrow) simply to get spine perfect for my arrows with broadheads. After I' ve got my draw weight set perfectly, I then group tune, so my bareshaft hits with my broadheads. (I' m not talking same hole, because I don' t have that ability, besides I' ve always heard that the bareshaft arrow should hit a bit lower). It would seem to me that at this point my broadheads would be planing little if any, in order to group with my bareshaft. I now shoot my arrow with field tips. What forces would cause my field tipped, fletched arrow to not group with my bareshaft and broadheads? And why if my bareshaft and broadheads group together, would that be considered a compromise tune? If the broadhead were planing, it wouldn' t hit with the bareshaft. You can take it a step further, and put the long field tips on the bareshaft and the fletched arrows and make sure the tape on the nock end of the bareshaft, weight the same as the fletching.
It' s hard for me to imagine that this process wouldn' t give you an extremely well tuned hunting setup. This is basically what I do, and it seems to work extremely well.
It' s hard for me to imagine that this process wouldn' t give you an extremely well tuned hunting setup. This is basically what I do, and it seems to work extremely well.
05-08-2003, 07:26 PM
#46
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
c903:
This is not my idea of relating to the " average and inexperienced shooters" :
I' ll answer the question about " temperature, lighting, natural elements, and distance. Temperature affects different material by way of what is termed CTE. This means that plastic will expand differently than aluminum and teflon will also be different, etc. If a hunter has a sight that is made of any of the multitude of modern ' plastic' materials available today, and many sights like Trophy Ridge do, then you' ll have this sight moving at a different rate than your riser. The proportional difference and how it would truly affect its relation to the rest would have to be determined.
A tournament shooter like Mr. Ragsdale can adjust his sight before the tournament starts. This is standard practice. A hunter, however, gets only one shot and he/she better make it count. Therefore, a hunter must adjust things to the " middle of the road" , as PW so eloquently put it.
Lighting can definitely have an effect on sighting a bow. The natural elements I eluded to include the wind and rain. I think I discussed how distance to the animal should be kept to a minimum.
I' m sorry that you look at my posts as spin. The spin I see is when nonrelevent material is brought into the picture.
Do whatever you want. It really has no affect on me or many others in this life. Most here just want to gather as much information as possible and relate it to their situation/application.
Good shooting to all; no matter how you choose to tune.
This is not my idea of relating to the " average and inexperienced shooters" :
" Serious competitors and ethical hunters will either have 2 bows ready for the 2 jobs, or 2 sights for their bow, one zeroed in with the broadheads and another zeroed in for the fieldpoints."
I' ll answer the question about " temperature, lighting, natural elements, and distance. Temperature affects different material by way of what is termed CTE. This means that plastic will expand differently than aluminum and teflon will also be different, etc. If a hunter has a sight that is made of any of the multitude of modern ' plastic' materials available today, and many sights like Trophy Ridge do, then you' ll have this sight moving at a different rate than your riser. The proportional difference and how it would truly affect its relation to the rest would have to be determined.
A tournament shooter like Mr. Ragsdale can adjust his sight before the tournament starts. This is standard practice. A hunter, however, gets only one shot and he/she better make it count. Therefore, a hunter must adjust things to the " middle of the road" , as PW so eloquently put it.
Lighting can definitely have an effect on sighting a bow. The natural elements I eluded to include the wind and rain. I think I discussed how distance to the animal should be kept to a minimum.
I' m sorry that you look at my posts as spin. The spin I see is when nonrelevent material is brought into the picture.
Do whatever you want. It really has no affect on me or many others in this life. Most here just want to gather as much information as possible and relate it to their situation/application.
Good shooting to all; no matter how you choose to tune.
05-08-2003, 08:19 PM
#47
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1,862
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
Len: [
][]
I appreciate your scientific knowledge. However, IMO, you are misdirecting and overloading. I know about the different affects that various environmental conditions can have on different materials and the different shooting conditions that lighting can cause.
Most of what you point out are generally concerns that a shooter may consider in competitive shooting on a range. Even then, not all, and sometimes no one, will have the opportunity or the gear to change setups as the weather and lighting conditions change. I do believe that the emphasis in this thread is on bowhunting and the rational and necessity of having broadhead-mounted shafts imitate the performance of field points.
I have a very hard, head-shaking, time trying to understand why some believe that their hunting shaft mounted with a broadhead must imitate the performance of a shaft mounted with a fieldpoint, when he or she, hopefully, is not going to be hunting large game with a fieldpoint.
However, I am really blown away by your implication that there is some kind of " middle-of-the-road" tuning that a bowhunter can and must attain in order that their outfit will compromise all the environmental/lighting conditions that will affect all the different man-made materials on the bow and arrows in many different ways, depending on the material to make ONE shot. PS: I did not know I was only suppose to take ONE shot!
Am I out of touch? Has the proper and minimum tuning of bowhunting gear actually reached such a plateau?
Jeez! My head hurts! What' s next, computer guidance systems on bows and heat seeking heads on shafts!!?
][]I appreciate your scientific knowledge. However, IMO, you are misdirecting and overloading. I know about the different affects that various environmental conditions can have on different materials and the different shooting conditions that lighting can cause.
Most of what you point out are generally concerns that a shooter may consider in competitive shooting on a range. Even then, not all, and sometimes no one, will have the opportunity or the gear to change setups as the weather and lighting conditions change. I do believe that the emphasis in this thread is on bowhunting and the rational and necessity of having broadhead-mounted shafts imitate the performance of field points.
I have a very hard, head-shaking, time trying to understand why some believe that their hunting shaft mounted with a broadhead must imitate the performance of a shaft mounted with a fieldpoint, when he or she, hopefully, is not going to be hunting large game with a fieldpoint.
However, I am really blown away by your implication that there is some kind of " middle-of-the-road" tuning that a bowhunter can and must attain in order that their outfit will compromise all the environmental/lighting conditions that will affect all the different man-made materials on the bow and arrows in many different ways, depending on the material to make ONE shot. PS: I did not know I was only suppose to take ONE shot!
Am I out of touch? Has the proper and minimum tuning of bowhunting gear actually reached such a plateau?
Jeez! My head hurts! What' s next, computer guidance systems on bows and heat seeking heads on shafts!!?
05-08-2003, 08:22 PM
#48
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Havertown PA USA
Posts: 232
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
Len, your right about this type dialogue. I love it. I appreciate all the input from the techies who visit and share there experties here. The thread Pinwheel was refering too was a great exchange. I still haven' t concluded my test results of the two different schools of tuning yet. But I' m leaning towards a comb of both with an initial start with a bare shaft for spine and nocking point. To a seperate tuning process for F/P and B/H. I do have a compulsive obcession for tuning that I refer to as meticulous to satisfy my addiction. lol. I wish there was one tape or book that would cover all the different tuning processes, timing, string and cable work for duel cams, and the little techie tricks you guys have. Anyone have any references? Thanks. JERRY
05-08-2003, 08:51 PM
#49
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ks.
Posts: 87
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
I agree wholeheartedly with Len. Ive seen to many articles from other well know tuners, or deer hunters who state that b.hds. can and should group with fpts.If your not right on the edge of being under or over spined the extra b.hd. length doesnt matter. F.o.c. s will be slightly different but will only change impacts at longer distances on a vertical plane.If you want to experiment, the next time you built some arrows leave one about two inches longer and see where it groups in relationship to the others. If youve done your homework, and matched your arrows to your bow,or your bow to your arrows, bareshafted for spine and got bare and fletched impacting together, the longer shaft will indeed impact with the shorter ones. There may be slight up and down scattering because of weight at the longer distances but side to side will be the same.
05-08-2003, 09:13 PM
#50
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Arrow Flight different with broadheads vs. field points
c903:
Yes, I think you are with regard to what I' ve been trying to relate. From the beginning I have noted the use of tolerances. I find that the compound bow is nothing even close to other types of weapons. The amount of parts, and especially those which have momentum, are unique to the compound bow. If you think that we can deal in absolutes in a field of variables, that' s why we will never agree.
Mainah77 asked, " I would like to be able to shoot the same with both tips." Based on all the input I' ve seen and given, the " middle of the road" is the only way he can accomplish this task. I trust Mainah77 will now be better equipped.
Hey Jerry. The minute you get it right, doesn' t something else go wrong?
I had mine just right a while back and happened to look down at the cable. It was starting to look too ragged to get through hunting season. But, that' s the fun of archery!
" Am I out of touch?"
Mainah77 asked, " I would like to be able to shoot the same with both tips." Based on all the input I' ve seen and given, the " middle of the road" is the only way he can accomplish this task. I trust Mainah77 will now be better equipped.
Hey Jerry. The minute you get it right, doesn' t something else go wrong?
I had mine just right a while back and happened to look down at the cable. It was starting to look too ragged to get through hunting season. But, that' s the fun of archery!