Len in Maryland

Corey:

Let me help you understand better one of your comments. You posted that your archery shop guy said " Anyhoo, he said that his arrows come off spinning causing less drag and having his BH hitting where his FP are hitting. The draw back for this setup I think would be more drag and less speed, plus the arrows flight has some added noise to it." The " spinning causing less drag" is wrong.

The spinning will cause more drag and is mentioned in your own next sentence when you stated " The draw back for this setup I think would be more drag and less speed, plus the arrows flight has some added noise to it." So, you got it wrong and then right. I just wanted to let you know which statement was correct. The helical fletching will expose more cross-sectional area to the air and create a drag effect which will subsequently spin the arrow. This will slightly slow down the arrow but will keep in straighter much the same as a parachute will do on a race car or jet fighter.

Having both FPs and BHs exit the bow string at absolutely the same ' angle of attack' will save kinetic energy that may be lost by the drag effect of the fletching. We are usually talking minuscule amounts here; but, there are cases where it can be quite a bit of differential. How far off the FPs and BH' s hit from each other will usually be an indicator of loss of KE.

Hope this helps.

Rack-attack

AMEN!!!

Arthur P

Len, with all respect, that' s not exactly a good reason. An arrow from a bow that' s tuned for best flight and best accuracy, with broadheads and without any regard whatsoever for where field points hit, is going to hit every bit as hard as an arrow from any bow that' s tuned to shoot broadheads and field points to the same hole. Even if you could prove that you pick up a foot pound or so of ' extra energy' , which you can' t, most folks can pick up at least that much energy just by adding arrow weight.

I' m not advocating sloppy bow tune. You HAVE to have that bow/arrow tuned and consistently shooting where it' s aimed if you' re going to shoot broadheads at animals. Respect for the wildlife and for all hunters in general demand it. I' m simply saying there is a point, after you' ve done all you can and broadheads are flying straight and true, where it' s okay to say " that' s as good as I can get it." Even if the broadheads and field points don' t hit exactly the same.

There is still a human being hanging onto the bow' s grip. As long as that varmint is there, the bow can never be perfectly tuned.

ijimmy

Wow I cant beleive I' m in agreement with c903 . The planets must be aligned or something . My first post with a link to ragsdales sight I belive is of value . How can you expect an arrow that is say 28" s long to hit exactly where an arrow that is 29 1/4 " s long does evan if you dont factor in the drag that it puts in front . There goes that perfect spine theory . I think that is one reason slick tricks are so accurate they are very short and have littel planing area . With all this said I have a bow that will stack broadheads and feild tips in the same hole , dont know why . Other bows I' ve shot will never shoot them in the same hole but they group great and fly great they just hit 2" over to the right at twenty yards . And no I dont need to move my rest slightly to the left , they will still be seprate groups and arrow flight/groups will suffer .

Len in Maryland

Arthur:

Take off your ' absolute' hat and put on your ' tolerance' hat.

Nowhere did I state that the arrows must hit " exactly the same" . What I' m trying to relate is that the tuning process doesn' t always STOP at a certain point. Is the discrepancy 1/2" , 1" , 1 1/2" , 2" , 10" ????????? If you say it' s 2" , someone on here will assume, since they can' t tune as well as others on this forum, that 6" is good enough. If you then add that this is 6" offset plus a 10" pattern, you' ve got an intolerant situation for general hunting.

Yes, you can have FPs and BHs hitting in the same area or patterning the same. Hitting in the ' same hole' is possible but not probable unless you' re using a shooting machine. Even then the chances are less probable due to added aerodynamic considerations.

Loss of KE is a given when any arrow is not flying a relatively straight trajectory to the target. This straight trajectory, when hampered by initial incorrect launch or angled entry into the target, will result in energy loss. Minuscule or dramatic is determined by the amount of tuning.

JOE PA

Chuck Adams says it can be done, and that the bow tune is always optimal when the two hit the same POI, at least when you are using his tuning system and match points! I was not aware that disagreeing with Mr. Adams in public was allowed.[&:]

Seriously though, I have done this both ways, and these days I don' t have too much trouble getting the broadheads to hit the same as field points, at least out to 30-40 yards. If I found that by tuning this way, my field point or broadhead groups were not as good as tuning separately, I would not try for the same POI. I haven' t noticed this personally though. My experience has been that if there is a major difference in POI, then the bow is not tuned as well as it should be.

If you can find a way to get your broadhead-tipped arrows coming off the bow cleanly, shooting good groups, and you have confidence in shooting them, then you have done well, and are ready to go hunting.

ijimmy

Auther You hit the nail on the head , this is how you should tune your bow if you plan to hunt with it , I doubt anyone will argue that . But I' ve been wrong in the past .

Joe , Chuck Adams signiture field points are about 1 1/2" s long or much longer than a regular field point so the arrows would have similar spines , not like your regular 1/2 " field point which will have a diferant arrow spine than an 1 1/2" fixed broadhead .

c903

ijimmy

You just never know where life' s path will take you from day to day.

However, as I see it, the objective of these archery/bowhunting information-gathering debates is not to take a side because someone strokes your back in a way that makes you feel warm and fuzzy. The objective is to reach the best or near best conclusion possible, and to provide a selection of possible answers or methods for each person (reader) to choose their own poison from.

I compare these threads to a covered dish gathering. Someone serves up the main course, and everyone else brings their own covered dish to add to the table. Those that partake can consume what they like, or not eat anything. When I add my dish, my intent is not to argue for the sake of argument. I always try to keep in mind, the new guy on block, the inexperienced, the reader searching for a better way, the reader looking for a solution, and the confused.

I am a firm believer in " straining for training."

AlaskanLarge

I don' t get why there is even an arguement to the issue. It is not that hard to do. I will give you the reason I do it. The differences between BH' s and FP' s groups will give you information as to why they don' t group together. Example, your BH' s hit two inches low but group of your FP' s at 30 yards. The arrow is comming out tail high, could be tune or arrow spine is weak or fletch contact, not that hard to fix.

The result of doing this gives me much tighter BH groups out to 40 yards. I have never had a problem getting BH' s to do this even with using a shorter FP, thats a bunch of BS. I am shooting Magnus Journymans right now, they are a non-vented two blade that is suposed to be the worst to shoot but I don' t have a problem getting them to do it either.

Tuning for this can solve several small problems that can really increase accuracy and group size with broadheads. Thats reason enough for me to do it, but the more you do it the faster you get at it, so it becomes easy to do with time. Not having to adjust your sight to shoot either is just a bonus by-product.

c903

AlaskanLarge

So, if I am reading you 5 X 5, you are saying that one cannot perfectly tune a broadhead to shoot accurate and tight groups without a having a fieldpoint mounted shaft for a comparative guide? That an off POI hit with a good flying broadhead requires more fixing than just a sight adjustment?

In other words, if the field point did not exist, obtaining good and accurate broadhead performance would be a difficult task; a hit and miss, luck-of-the-draw, feat accomplished only by a few of the most skilled -but lucky, shooters. []