Off the string or loop
05-06-2003, 07:35 AM
#21
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Off the string or loop
Frank:
We always put the loops on to the point where the release will almost touch the nock. Then we tell the customer to expect some stretch and to bring it back to us if it does stretch for a free adjustment. Keeping the loop as short as possible limits the ' other' adjustments. I' ve seen some loops as long as 2" when they really should be about 1/2" .
I' m also a strong believer of shortening the release rather than shortening the draw length. They' re now making ' loop' releases which have the trigger repositioned for the loop differential and they work very well at allowing an archer to maintain his/her present draw length while using a standard loop.
Another trick is to put a slightly larger diameter nock on the string while installing the loop. Keep the nock on while you' re tightening the loop and you' ll have a nice fit when you go to your regular nock. If you put enough pressure on the loop installation, it should ' dig' into the groves of the serving and will not move. Monofilament serving is the worst to deal with when installing a loop.
We always put the loops on to the point where the release will almost touch the nock. Then we tell the customer to expect some stretch and to bring it back to us if it does stretch for a free adjustment. Keeping the loop as short as possible limits the ' other' adjustments. I' ve seen some loops as long as 2" when they really should be about 1/2" .
I' m also a strong believer of shortening the release rather than shortening the draw length. They' re now making ' loop' releases which have the trigger repositioned for the loop differential and they work very well at allowing an archer to maintain his/her present draw length while using a standard loop.
Another trick is to put a slightly larger diameter nock on the string while installing the loop. Keep the nock on while you' re tightening the loop and you' ll have a nice fit when you go to your regular nock. If you put enough pressure on the loop installation, it should ' dig' into the groves of the serving and will not move. Monofilament serving is the worst to deal with when installing a loop.
05-06-2003, 09:08 AM
#23
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Off the string or loop
Len,
Thanks for the tips. I have been using much the same procedure as you described in your first paragraph and have found much the same things recently in regard to some of the excessively long loops found on some folks' bows. I have also contemplated trying a shorter or more adjustable release but have not had a chance to as of yet.
Have you tried any of the " slip on" loops yet?
Are you referring to brass nocksets or tied-on ones?
This is generally what I have found as well. The only problem I run into then is when the string creeps and I have to reinstall the loop to compensate for it.
Thanks for the tips. I have been using much the same procedure as you described in your first paragraph and have found much the same things recently in regard to some of the excessively long loops found on some folks' bows. I have also contemplated trying a shorter or more adjustable release but have not had a chance to as of yet.
Have you tried any of the " slip on" loops yet?
Another trick is to put a slightly larger diameter nock on the string while installing the loop. Keep the nock on while you' re tightening the loop and you' ll have a nice fit when you go to your regular nock.
If you put enough pressure on the loop installation, it should ' dig' into the groves of the serving and will not move
05-06-2003, 03:35 PM
#24
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Off the string or loop
archerman: While your system works, I would prefer the string loop. With such a short ATA and the hard leverage of a drop-away rest, you could be getting some torsional disturbance on the arrow at full draw.
Frank: The shorter releases, and especially the ' hook' style are really the trick. With the hook, I can load my release with my eyes closed. This really helps when you have you eyes on the animal and can' t afford to look down to put your release on the loop.
I haven' t tried any of the ' slip on' loops because I can' t really see where they would give me the benefit of controlling the peep due to not being secured well enough to the serving. Do you have any positive input in this matter?
What I' m referring to is the arrow nock. When you use a slightly larger one, this keeps the ' pinch down when installing your regular arrow nock. The way we tighten the loop, there is always a tendency for the loop knots to try to squeeze together.
The string creep (or stretch) is something that you have to contend with no matter what style of nock/loop you use. It is serving creep that will drive you crazy. I just had to reserve a brand new WC string for the customer because the serving slipped up in just a dozen shots. I called WC and got VERY LITTLE satisfaction. Needless to say, George Bowman (www.bowmancustomstrings.com) got a call very quickly.
Frank: The shorter releases, and especially the ' hook' style are really the trick. With the hook, I can load my release with my eyes closed. This really helps when you have you eyes on the animal and can' t afford to look down to put your release on the loop.
I haven' t tried any of the ' slip on' loops because I can' t really see where they would give me the benefit of controlling the peep due to not being secured well enough to the serving. Do you have any positive input in this matter?
Another trick is to put a slightly larger diameter nock on the string while installing the loop. Keep the nock on while you' re tightening the loop and you' ll have a nice fit when you go to your regular nock.
This is generally what I have found as well. The only problem I run into then is when the string creeps and I have to reinstall the loop to compensate for it.
05-06-2003, 05:28 PM
#25
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Off the string or loop
Len,
Are you feeling colorful today?
I have been kicking around the idea of trying the Scott Lil Goose though Jeff has suggested that I try one of the Carter models. I have little experience with them though I am guessing this is the type of release that you are referring to.
No, I have not tried the slip-on loop either. I have not had any of the loops I tied slip or come undone as of yet so I really do not see any advantage to the slip-on version. Plus, the slip-on version is more difficult to initially install as the bow must be put in a press.
Thanks for the nock tip. I will try that one out on the next bow when I install the loop.
True, but I have found it somewhat easier to uninstall and reinstall a brass nockset in comparison to a string loop provided the string loop is cinched extremely tight.
I would take that to mean that you have had better luck with George Bowman' s servings?
Are you feeling colorful today?
I have been kicking around the idea of trying the Scott Lil Goose though Jeff has suggested that I try one of the Carter models. I have little experience with them though I am guessing this is the type of release that you are referring to.No, I have not tried the slip-on loop either. I have not had any of the loops I tied slip or come undone as of yet so I really do not see any advantage to the slip-on version. Plus, the slip-on version is more difficult to initially install as the bow must be put in a press.
Thanks for the nock tip. I will try that one out on the next bow when I install the loop.
The string creep (or stretch) is something that you have to contend with no matter what style of nock/loop you use.
I just had to reserve a brand new WC string for the customer because the serving slipped up in just a dozen shots. I called WC and got VERY LITTLE satisfaction. Needless to say, George Bowman (www.bowmancustomstrings.com) got a call very quickly.
05-06-2003, 06:46 PM
#26
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Dover, PA USA
Posts: 5,497
RE: Off the string or loop
Frank,
The Lil' Goose will still put the position of the trigger too far back in relation to the jaw itself.........the " True" loop style releases you should be looking at are ones like the Scott " Rhino" , Carter " One Shot" , or Tru-Ball " Short-N-Sweet" .
These styles that put the trigger as close as possible to the point of contact with the loop is what negates the change in anchor usually associated with a transition from " Off the string" to a loop style.
Here' s a copy of a post from Eders I made to Vic (500fps) describing the style of loop I use..........This change in style vs what I normally use came from " JeffB" after he attended a seminar in NY with some top shelf archers with their careers riding on stuff like this. Thanks Jeff for taking me out of " Redneckville" .(see below)
First I will say that I have always shot a normal loop(what turns out the pros like Dave Cousins call a " Redneck Loop" )
Well if you just tie yourself a " Redneck Loop" and leave the normal bit of air between the 2 simple knots so that they aren' t putting any pressure on the nock sandwiched between....you think that you are OK. You ARE OK....but only OK. If you can do it, with a normal " Redneck Loop" draw your bow with a release and arrow and at full draw pull the string away from your face and look at the location of your release and the direction of pull.
You will see that the release is completely ABOVE the line of your arrow nock and that you are pulling on an " incline" .
What you want to do is this........
Locate your upper nock point that your arrow nock will rest against.......at this point tie in a nock set with serving about 1/8" in total length. Build it up enough and tight enough that it provides a good solid nock set.
Next fit an arrow nock you plan on shooting on the string. Make a mark about 1/16th of an inch BELOW the bottom edge of your arrow nock. This will provide a bit of " AIR" between the 2 nock sets.....this is important so that you have no pressure at all on the nock itself from below.
Now tie in another nock set starting at that lower mark and extend it TWICE as long as the first nock set....meaning build it up at a length of about 1/4" . That is the trick to this style........without the bottom set being DOUBLE the length of the top you will still be pulling above the line of the arrow.
Finally simply tie in a string loop AROUND these 2 nock sets(I like the knots to alternate or face opposite directions).....keep the loop very shallow to start because it will need to set. You want only about 1/8 -1/4" of gap between the finished loop and your arrow' s nock..........just enough to get your release in comfortably.
Now repeat that first excercise (again if you can) of drawing your bow with a release and arrow and look at the location of the release and the direction of pull...........you' ll see that BOTH are directly in line with the arrow.
Here' s a pic of my personal loop set-up on my 3D bow (Pro40 Dually)
(The 2 tied in sets are different colors just because I retied the bottom one a few days ago to give it a bit more length vs the original...same material different color that' s all)
You can actually see the ' Set" in the loop material made by the release position at full draw. You can also see the bit of " Air" between the nock and bottom nock set.
This style should help considerably to remove any " Release induced" nock travel problems.........it will promote much better nock travel in any bow, but especially Dual Cams where you don' t want to do anything to screw up what should be level nock travel in a properly timed set up.
The Lil' Goose will still put the position of the trigger too far back in relation to the jaw itself.........the " True" loop style releases you should be looking at are ones like the Scott " Rhino" , Carter " One Shot" , or Tru-Ball " Short-N-Sweet" .
These styles that put the trigger as close as possible to the point of contact with the loop is what negates the change in anchor usually associated with a transition from " Off the string" to a loop style.
Here' s a copy of a post from Eders I made to Vic (500fps) describing the style of loop I use..........This change in style vs what I normally use came from " JeffB" after he attended a seminar in NY with some top shelf archers with their careers riding on stuff like this. Thanks Jeff for taking me out of " Redneckville" .(see below)
First I will say that I have always shot a normal loop(what turns out the pros like Dave Cousins call a " Redneck Loop" )
Well if you just tie yourself a " Redneck Loop" and leave the normal bit of air between the 2 simple knots so that they aren' t putting any pressure on the nock sandwiched between....you think that you are OK. You ARE OK....but only OK. If you can do it, with a normal " Redneck Loop" draw your bow with a release and arrow and at full draw pull the string away from your face and look at the location of your release and the direction of pull.
You will see that the release is completely ABOVE the line of your arrow nock and that you are pulling on an " incline" .
What you want to do is this........
Locate your upper nock point that your arrow nock will rest against.......at this point tie in a nock set with serving about 1/8" in total length. Build it up enough and tight enough that it provides a good solid nock set.
Next fit an arrow nock you plan on shooting on the string. Make a mark about 1/16th of an inch BELOW the bottom edge of your arrow nock. This will provide a bit of " AIR" between the 2 nock sets.....this is important so that you have no pressure at all on the nock itself from below.
Now tie in another nock set starting at that lower mark and extend it TWICE as long as the first nock set....meaning build it up at a length of about 1/4" . That is the trick to this style........without the bottom set being DOUBLE the length of the top you will still be pulling above the line of the arrow.
Finally simply tie in a string loop AROUND these 2 nock sets(I like the knots to alternate or face opposite directions).....keep the loop very shallow to start because it will need to set. You want only about 1/8 -1/4" of gap between the finished loop and your arrow' s nock..........just enough to get your release in comfortably.
Now repeat that first excercise (again if you can) of drawing your bow with a release and arrow and look at the location of the release and the direction of pull...........you' ll see that BOTH are directly in line with the arrow.
Here' s a pic of my personal loop set-up on my 3D bow (Pro40 Dually)
(The 2 tied in sets are different colors just because I retied the bottom one a few days ago to give it a bit more length vs the original...same material different color that' s all)
You can actually see the ' Set" in the loop material made by the release position at full draw. You can also see the bit of " Air" between the nock and bottom nock set.
This style should help considerably to remove any " Release induced" nock travel problems.........it will promote much better nock travel in any bow, but especially Dual Cams where you don' t want to do anything to screw up what should be level nock travel in a properly timed set up.
05-06-2003, 09:44 PM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Crosby TX USA
Posts: 2,599
RE: Off the string or loop
That' s why I like coming to this site. Nowhere else can a group of guys turn a silly little piece of string into something so technical.
Here I thought I had string loops all figured out.
My bows are definately set up with " redneck loops"
Next time I' m shooting I' ll be wondering if I need to get all fancy with my loops.
I' ll look at my release and check that angle thing out.
Here I thought I had string loops all figured out.
My bows are definately set up with " redneck loops"
Next time I' m shooting I' ll be wondering if I need to get all fancy with my loops.
I' ll look at my release and check that angle thing out.
05-06-2003, 10:01 PM
#28
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Baltimore Maryland USA
Posts: 1,385
RE: Off the string or loop
Frank:
Yes, I guess I' m feeling colorful today!
The releases Matt mentioned are some about which I was talking. Another is the Tru-Fire Black Talon; although this one needs a little trigger adjustment - IMPO.
The slip-on string loop is too much of a pain to install; especially if you already have elements on the string. Couple that with not controlling the peep and you' ve got something that is probably cost prohibitive and ineffective.
A way to change the loop quickly and effectively is through usage of a tool. We use a very sharp punch that we found at a flea market. I think they' re used for leather working. Put the point into a crease in the knot and twist. The loop will loosen no matter how tight it may be.
Yes, I found George must easier to deal with and found that his strings are very good quality. I did also have a problem with the center servings not being long enough to facilitate a standard kisser button. A comment to George about the problem and it was fixed.
The WC strings are good; but, as a Dealer, I have to stand up for my customers and get proper action on problems. I still purchase from WC but I' m now aware of how I have to address my needs.
Matt:
The Pro' s calling it a " Redneck Loop" is probably very offensive to 80% of the hunting archers. I' m sorry to see that phrase used by them.
Anyhow, what you describe is true but, IMPO, not worth the trouble unless you' re going for the very center of a ' Vegas' target face. Unless many tie their loops very different from my techs, which I doubt, the difference from the centerline of the arrow to the centerline of the release is minuscule in the scope of things. Also, from my work on actual nock travel of various bows, the amount of change incorporated by this ' elitist' loop will have a minuscule affect on nock travel.
A much quicker way to achieve the same results would be to use a small string nokset below the arrow with the stated clearances.
I agree but respectfully take issue.
Yes, I guess I' m feeling colorful today!
The releases Matt mentioned are some about which I was talking. Another is the Tru-Fire Black Talon; although this one needs a little trigger adjustment - IMPO.
The slip-on string loop is too much of a pain to install; especially if you already have elements on the string. Couple that with not controlling the peep and you' ve got something that is probably cost prohibitive and ineffective.
A way to change the loop quickly and effectively is through usage of a tool. We use a very sharp punch that we found at a flea market. I think they' re used for leather working. Put the point into a crease in the knot and twist. The loop will loosen no matter how tight it may be.
I just had to reserve a brand new WC string for the customer because the serving slipped up in just a dozen shots. I called WC and got VERY LITTLE satisfaction. Needless to say, George Bowman (www.bowmancustomstrings.com) got a call very quickly.
The WC strings are good; but, as a Dealer, I have to stand up for my customers and get proper action on problems. I still purchase from WC but I' m now aware of how I have to address my needs.
Matt:
The Pro' s calling it a " Redneck Loop" is probably very offensive to 80% of the hunting archers. I' m sorry to see that phrase used by them.
Anyhow, what you describe is true but, IMPO, not worth the trouble unless you' re going for the very center of a ' Vegas' target face. Unless many tie their loops very different from my techs, which I doubt, the difference from the centerline of the arrow to the centerline of the release is minuscule in the scope of things. Also, from my work on actual nock travel of various bows, the amount of change incorporated by this ' elitist' loop will have a minuscule affect on nock travel.
A much quicker way to achieve the same results would be to use a small string nokset below the arrow with the stated clearances.
I agree but respectfully take issue.
05-07-2003, 04:42 AM
#29
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: .. NH USA
Posts: 970
RE: Off the string or loop
I am with Len on that! If the Pros are publically calling them " Redneck loops" , and " dissing" every other archer on the planet except those that shoot " their" style of loop, then they aren' t very " Professional" to anyone but themselves, IMHO.
However--
I can see Dave calling it that in fun with friends tho, as he likes to bust chops as much as the next guy. Seeing as he lives in the hills of Maine, " Redneck" is calling the kettle black some, isn' t it? He puts his pants on the same as everyone else when he gets up in the morning too, no matter how many titles he has won. I think Dave is a great guy, and feel that he may have just been " busting" in good fun with no malice meant towards anyone.
Yep, I also firmly believe that that little " extra" is of little consequence. I have run my loops from one end of the spectrum to the other in the quest for the " perfect one, and can say that you DO have it right IMO with the double tied-in noksets above and below with a slight air space, but an extra 1/8" of material under the arrow nock only serves to bring the release down MAYBE half of that, and if you can visibly notice the difference in arrow flight and nock travel from MAYBE 1/32-1/16" of movement in release position, then you' re a much better man than I am. The only time you can readily notice change in flight and nock travel is when you change the position to completely under the arrow, or if you are " cinching the arrow" (varying flight, same nock travel) with a loop when tied over and above the arrow.
Other than that, shoot ' em the way you like ' em, there are no " miracle" loops as long as you have sufficient clearance and no interferrence from pressure.
I also agree about the slip-on loops. P.I.T.A. IMO. You have to yank the string to get them on, and who wants to do that? Tie-ons are much simpler. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
If the Pros are publically calling them " Redneck loops" , and " dissing" every other archer on the planet except those that shoot " their" style of loop, then they aren' t very " Professional" to anyone but themselves, IMHO.However--
I can see Dave calling it that in fun with friends tho, as he likes to bust chops as much as the next guy. Seeing as he lives in the hills of Maine, " Redneck" is calling the kettle black some, isn' t it? He puts his pants on the same as everyone else when he gets up in the morning too, no matter how many titles he has won. I think Dave is a great guy, and feel that he may have just been " busting" in good fun with no malice meant towards anyone.
Yep, I also firmly believe that that little " extra" is of little consequence. I have run my loops from one end of the spectrum to the other in the quest for the " perfect one, and can say that you DO have it right IMO with the double tied-in noksets above and below with a slight air space, but an extra 1/8" of material under the arrow nock only serves to bring the release down MAYBE half of that, and if you can visibly notice the difference in arrow flight and nock travel from MAYBE 1/32-1/16" of movement in release position, then you' re a much better man than I am. The only time you can readily notice change in flight and nock travel is when you change the position to completely under the arrow, or if you are " cinching the arrow" (varying flight, same nock travel) with a loop when tied over and above the arrow.
Other than that, shoot ' em the way you like ' em, there are no " miracle" loops as long as you have sufficient clearance and no interferrence from pressure.
I also agree about the slip-on loops. P.I.T.A. IMO. You have to yank the string to get them on, and who wants to do that? Tie-ons are much simpler. Good shooting, Pinwheel 12
05-07-2003, 04:56 AM
#30
Boone & Crockett
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lehigh County PA USA
Posts: 12,157
RE: Off the string or loop
Thanks for the tips Matt, Len, Kevin. I am going to give each of your suggestions a whirl and see which works best for my setup and personal shooting style.
Dave,
" Ain' t" that the truth.
Dave,
" Ain' t" that the truth.